Please see http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/8286034/Magpies-and-crows-to-be-culled-to-protect-songbirds.html
This is bad on an epic scale. A hugely undesirable precedent, interfering with natural processes on the basis of bad science (or no science at all), a tiny pressure group apparently driving the agenda, and no apparent action by the authorities to, at least, explain what is actually going on (though the Telegraph might have missed it).
This is indeed a black day for biodiversity.
Every day a little more irate about bird of prey persecution, and I have a cat - Got a problem with that?
Helo Frank, I have copy of that paper thanks.
I respect the views of anyone who does not want to see animals culled, that is not my issue.
The thrust of my argument with the RSPB's and others response to this issue has been based on what I perceive to be double standards and 'playing to the gallery' by RSPB.
It is based on the fact that RSPB cry out for more research on predator / prey interactions and what effect predator control and habitat modifications have on populations of ground nesting birds or songbirds.But it seems that they consider only they can decide who does the research and the design of the model.
It is also based on the fact that RSPB on their reserves have always carried out predator control and cull foxes, corvids etc.yet play holier than though when others do it.
It is also based on the fact that RSPB feel they can decide it is OK to cull gulls / foxes / ruddy ducks/corvids in the interest of protecting high profile species, but not game birds, gulls or songbirds.
it is also based on the fact that RSPB seem to have designated resources and special protection to birds that have a high eco-tourism earning factor at the expense of everything else.
It is based on the fact that the constant sniping at farmers, other charities, conservationists, landowners and the G&WCT and shooting fraternity - " the dark forces" as I constantly see them referred to on the RSPB fora is not conducive to furthering conservation of all species and the environment. Calling the G&WCT, Shooters etc "dark forces" and the Songbird Survival the SS, hardly constitutes good PR practices.
Because some people may carry out the abhorrent practice of illegal persecution of raptors, this should not lead to the generalization that all landowners or shooting interests do so, or that they do nothing of value in the conservation area, but only take "relish" in killing.That is rather like saying that all people who are against shooting and hunting petrol bomb hunt kennels. Obviously a nonsense.
It is based on the fact that if habitat was the SOLE criteria for healthy bird population, then the RSPB have failed miserably in the last 20 years. They have control over 200+ nature reserves covering 130,000 + hectares and huge resources in manpower and money, yet we see decline in many species, even on the reserves.
To ignore any aspect of conservation management because it may not sit well with sections of the membership, and to antagonize a large section of the community, farmers and landowning fraternity does not to me seem like a good way forward.
All bodies concerned in the conservation of the environment need to work together if the needs of all species, including man, are to be met.
In conclusion, I am sure that the G&WCT will find in this particular research that while predator control results in an initial increase in songbird productivity in the immediate research areas, this will not be sustained in subsequent breeding seasons. ( Indeed G&WCT research has already shown that, in relation to other areas ) Also, that it will only be through the judicious use of habitat improvement, combined with limited and localized predator control where needed, that the optimum conditions will be achieved.
==============
Investigating the effects of predator removal and habitat management on nest success and breeding population size of a farmland passerine: a case study
The Game & Wildlife Conservation Trust Allerton Project, Loddington, Leicestershire LE7 9XE, UK
Article first published online: 21 AUG 2008
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1474-919X.2008.00858.x/full
Thank you for your reply David.
I'm afraid I didn't come on here to knock or attack the RSPB for anything they may or may not have done in the past, and believe me I could.
I'm only taking part in this thread to try and prevent what I belive is a totally unnecessary, and indeed wrongful, attack on the Corvid and BOP population.
All the best,
Frank.
Scottish landscape and nature photography by Frank Baird - http://www.focushighland.co.uk
phil m said: Please see http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/8286034/Magpies-and-crows-to-be-culled-to-protect-songbirds.html This is bad on an epic scale. A hugely undesirable precedent, interfering with natural processes on the basis of bad science (or no science at all), a tiny pressure group apparently driving the agenda, and no apparent action by the authorities to, at least, explain what is actually going on (though the Telegraph might have missed it). This is indeed a black day for biodiversity.
The proposed cull by the Song Bird Survival Charity is a ploy to encourage the killing of 'game bird' predators and nothing to do with song birds who as we know are decimated by cats, barn restoration, industrial farming practice and hedge row removal. Use the net to spread the word and stop the cull!
Hi Phil find your comment very strange where you blame barn restoration(never seen song birds in barns)and you blame farming and hedge row removal without any acknowledgement at all that you and almost 60 milion others of us do the greatest damage,cannot you see that all the cities,towns,airports,roads and lots of other man made problems causing pollution and other things are almost certainly the bigger problem and not a mention just the good old favourite trotted out about farming and then suggesting that as the answer.Just look around.
Dulaich said: I think you will find if you bother to read the user policy for the community it nowhere says that ex members or non members of RSPB are not allowed to join or post.
I think you will find if you bother to read the user policy for the community it nowhere says that ex members or non members of RSPB are not allowed to join or post.
Agreed. And I'm a non member. Bet that one surprised you! ;)
davidbinos said: Why do you assume that anyone who goes against the party line and challenges misleading statements, bad science, and double standards is a troll. Any person concerned with the facts rather than propaganda should be open and able to debate the issues.If you are so sure of the rights of your stance, then enter the debate and prove your point.
Why do you assume that anyone who goes against the party line and challenges misleading statements, bad science, and double standards is a troll. Any person concerned with the facts rather than propaganda should be open and able to debate the issues.If you are so sure of the rights of your stance, then enter the debate and prove your point.
As I said before David, FACT.....
"A recent scientific review of the way predatory birds impact on songbirds, commissioned by SongBird Survival from the British Trust for Ornithology largely exonerated crows, magpies and raptors from causing songbird population declines.
"Our own and other reputable scientific research suggests that intensification of farming practices and other land use changes, encouraged by the Common Agricultural Policy, have driven the particular declines of farmland bird species across the UK and more widely in Europe".
Hi Frank think you need to include lots of other things causing pollution and loss of habitat in with that farming bit,ironically no publicity giveN but several farms(some in Scotland) growing small acraeges of bird food mixtures to combat the problem.What a pity the same publicity is not given to that as what people consider farmers have done wrong which is really well overplayed but the people who pin the blame start out with set intentions of not blaming anyone who uses planes,cars or owns cats because if you blame those you upset most of population and do not get many subs.Farmers are fairly innocent victims of feeding almost everyone in the country and why they are vilified defys logic.Old slogan DO NOT KICK A FARMER WITH A FULL BELLY.
Sooty I'm with you on this, no ONE entity is to blame, it is an accumulation of MANS abuse of the planet.
It is not right to point the finger in one direction, the changes to farming practises have all been driven by mans greed and owner/occupier mentality. It is not solely the fault of farmers, corvids,raptors or gamebird shooters it is a sum of all these parts and our attitude to it is to point the finger at anyone but our own.
When infact it is all OUR faults and the only real solution is to change the way everything works....
It's both what you do and the way that you do it!
You cannot fly like an eagle with the wings of a wren. William Henry Hudson (1841 - 1922)
Hi Sooty.
Please accept my full apologies on this matter. I am honestly not out to get the farmers. I am merely quoting the relevant passages from the Songbird Society website, and the G&WCT website, where they themselves state that the Corvids and BOP#s are not to blame.
I was born and brought up in farming, am a landowner with both arable land and moorland which is home to all kinds of wildlife ie. Red Deer, Grouse, Pheasant, Buzzard, Kestrel, Sparrowhawk, Rabbit, Hare, occasioanal Pine Marten, Barn and Tawny Owls as well as Chaffinch, Greenfinch, Robin, Dunnock, Great Tit, Coal Tit, Blue Tit, Blackbird, Rook, Jackdaw, etc etc.
We also get our fair share of Curlew, Lapwing, Barn Swallows etc during the summer months.
The land is left mainly to nature apart from the 21 horses of variious breeds that we have grazing on it.
I know there is more to the decline in songbird numbers than farming practices and as I say, I was merely qouting the relevant text froom the accusing societies which contradicts their claims.
Again, I apologise if I have caused you or others any offence.
Frank
Dulaich said: Hi Sooty. Please accept my full apologies on this matter. I am honestly not out to get the farmers. I am merely quoting the relevant passages from the Songbird Society website, and the G&WCT website, where they themselves state that the Corvids and BOP#s are not to blame. I was born and brought up in farming, am a landowner with both arable land and moorland which is home to all kinds of wildlife ie. Red Deer, Grouse, Pheasant, Buzzard, Kestrel, Sparrowhawk, Rabbit, Hare, occasioanal Pine Marten, Barn and Tawny Owls as well as Chaffinch, Greenfinch, Robin, Dunnock, Great Tit, Coal Tit, Blue Tit, Blackbird, Rook, Jackdaw, etc etc. We also get our fair share of Curlew, Lapwing, Barn Swallows etc during the summer months. The land is left mainly to nature apart from the 21 horses of variious breeds that we have grazing on it. I know there is more to the decline in songbird numbers than farming practices and as I say, I was merely qouting the relevant text froom the accusing societies which contradicts their claims. Again, I apologise if I have caused you or others any offence. Frank
Hi Frank I feel you have no need to apologise from reading your previous comments know you are much too polite to be rude etc and know you just quoting the various conclusions that are put out,while I disagree with you I respect your views and honestly no need to apologise,regards Den.
"
When infact it is all OUR faults and the only real solution is to change the way everything works...."
Agree 100%.
Frank, I see nothing in your posts other than polite, relevant debate. I respect your point of view and respect even more your way of putting it over.
:)
Hi all
Just a reminder that we are happy for forum users to use this forum to discuss topics strongly but please do so in a polite manner and respect other peoples entitlement to their opinions. It is obvious on such an emotive issue that feelings will run high on all sides but please, keep it calm.
Just to address a couple of points that were raised, firstly Sooty, you may see large aggregations of magpies over winter as many will gather in communal roosts. However they are unlikely to stay at such a high density through the year as during the breeding season most of them should pair up and defend a territory from other magpies. Those not able to do so may form a roving flock of non-breeding birds. As few species are nesting over the winter months i doubt that the high number of magpies currently roosting in your area are having an impact on nesting birds and they should have dispersed by the main breeding season.
Secondly, the cirl bunting reintroduction project is aimed at re-establishing the cirl bunting back into Cornwall. The project uses birds taken under license from the naturally recovering population in Devon for this and you can see how well it is going via the link here and here. The Devon population has been successful due to great partnership work between local farmers, the RSPB and Natural England.
On the issue of corvid predation and the impacts on songbirds specifically, all the research to date (RSPB, GWCT and BTO as have been mentioned on this thread) points to other factors being responsible for any declines. Whilst declines in farmland specialists are linked with changes in farming methods, declines in woodland birds and some generalists and urban birds show links to problems with their habitats and food supply. House sparrows have been shown to struggle to find sufficient insect prey to raise healthy young, starlings and swifts roof nesting sites are under threat through new building techniques and many woodland species have declined through the degradation of their woodland habitats.
As you can see from the link here, the RSPB does not object to appropriate and targeted predator control in situations where it has been proven to be essential for species recovery. However we do find it frustrating that corvids are continually used as a smokescreen to deflect the attention away from the real conservation issues behind the decline of many songbird species.
Warden Intern at Otmoor.