I live in a rural area close to Lowestoft and the sign below is one of dozens being erected by the farmers/landowners vehemently opposed to the introduction of these birds locally.
I understand the Norfolk farming lobby have successfully prevented these birds being introduced to Norfolk and now have Suffolk in their sights.
Given the disgraceful and illegal killing of birds of prey still being carried out by various groups I wonder whether this kind of advertising campaign encourages this kind of appalling behaviour.
It seems to me that Scotland successfully re-introduced these wonderful birds without problem and perhaps this is yet another example of the prejudice against birds of prey which seems endemic in many of our landowners and farmers.
Final thought, if the majority of people want these birds how can they challenge this campaign as most of us don't have thousands of acres on which to advertise our views.
Well NorfolkDipper and louloudi as a retired farmer but also a lover of Sea Eagles think I probably know farmers a bit better and don't think it is bluff but you can surely see it is only fair if landowners in Scotland with Eagles overhead gets lots of compensation East Anglian landowners in the same position should get equal treatment and I suspect this is what it is all about.Did not say that RSPB which we also support hid things but if you look in the right place you will find that crofters on west coast of Scotland and Skye demanded Sea Eagles removed but of course when offered compensation took different attitude,think that proves my point.
Think the partners in this need to do a lot of talking to opposing landowners and do more explaining.
Have never thought that Sea Eagles are as much a danger to livestock as other things such as crows so we agree there but it is essential to convince landowners and not antagonise them because surely if there is little danger the experts need to call meetings and explain things.
Probably when these birds need feeding in first winter and when they get nesting landowners help will be absolutely necessary so please do not inflame the situation in these forums as I know for sure one very influential shooting man who I think is a editor and is really good for persuading shooters to accept raptors has read this forum and is really annoyed.It is really easy to harden these peoples attitude.
I just hope projects such as this one get the support they need and the understanding and cooperation from those where it needs to be.
Sometimes beliefs are carried for generations, and then its hard to change someone's thoughts if that's what they have been brought up to believe.
I hope no one thinks I'm belittling anyone or anything, I can understand both sides of view. If these beautiful birds do not pose threats or risks to livestock etc, then its up to the authorities and to organisations to educate and gain the support of the people where they really need it.
But there's always the problem that a minority will take the law into their own hands to make sure these birds do not stay there. Unfortunately there are still plenty of people who do not want birds of prey near them *sigh*
Sooty said, 'Have never thought that Sea Eagles are as much a danger to livestock as other things such as crows
See that s another thing with many differing opinions. Farmers and dairymen we know reckon the horror stories about Ravens, was it last year, were just that, stories. A farmer and gamekeeper we spoke to last year reckoned that the couple of times he saw Ravens at his lambs, was because both times the lambs were frail and wouldn't have survived anyway.
Its a real can of worms. lots differing opinions and fears. Agree a lot of talking needs to be done
Hi Susan my brother-in-law has 400 ewes and when lambing Crows can be a nightmare as most ewes these days have twins and while the ewe in labour with second lamb crows unless culled will peck the eyes out of the first lamb.Really horrific isn't it.By the way Cat owners it may be a rare occurance but bones belonging to cat have been found in Sea Eagles nest.
Hello Sooty
I think you may have misundertood my comments, the point I was trying to make was that for a scheme like this to work it MUST have the backing of all parties, else it will fail. I realise that there is only a minority who persecute these birds, but with such low numbers of birds and with such a poor conviction rate against such crimes this minority can do a great deal of damage.
I have lived in the country all my life and have regular day to day contact with the farming community and relise that the vast majority are interested in wildlife and a great deal of them participate in conservation schemes. I also know many people who are involved in shooting, although I would never participate myself it is something I have grown up with all my life (as a boy throughout the season there were always pheasants hanging in our shed), I am extremely surprised that an 'influential' member of the shooting community should be so thinned skinned and annoyed by my comments.
"Feed the birds, tuppence a bag" Mary Poppins
michael s said: Hi Susan my brother-in-law has 400 ewes and when lambing Crows can be a nightmare as most ewes these days have twins and while the ewe in labour with second lamb crows unless culled will peck the eyes out of the first lamb.Really horrific isn't it.By the way Cat owners it may be a rare occurance but bones belonging to cat have been found in Sea Eagles nest.
It might be horrific but the crows are only doing what they need to do to survive and perhaps it is time people started to look at alternative methods to protect livestock rather than simply turning to culling. It seems that people don't want to try other methods to protect livestock even when those methods are using in other areas. Shed lambing for one example, electic fences to protect chickens from foxes is another and on mainland Europe dogs that are bred to protect livestock from wolves and donkeys providing the same protection in other countries. I think more should be done to encourage and even provide funding for these methods to be used rather than going straight to the gun. If eagles could be an issue during the lambing season I personally would much rather see something to offer some protection during the most vulnerable time for the lambs - the first couple of days after being born - rather than simply having a compensation scheme, though I do agree that should also be in place. It has the added advantage of offering protection from other threats too including crows, foxes and domestic dogs.
As for a cat being found in a sea eagle nest, cats are predators themselves that are a nuscience to wildlife hence the trapping and spaying of feral cats in some areas. Using a "poor kitty killed by eagle" is not a good argument against the reintroduction at all, especially not with the number of cats killed by cars, dogs and diseases caught from other cats each year. Eagles are just a minor threat faced by free to roam cats every day and the cat owners accept the risks by allowing their cat to roam.
Millie & Fly the Border Collies
Norfolk Dipper sorry if it seemed I implied it was your comments that annoyed shooting enthusiast,can tell you it was not your comments. Think my point was for you that I don't think it is bluff about compensation so a good point to offer it and see if they take it up,being a retired farmer I think they would like the crofters did.
Kat Tai maybe you have the impression I am against re-introduction,not so but am insisting young birds fed first winter as they would not have any parental help in survival.
The cat is really proof that not only farmers have concerns.
Farmers have to live in the real world and the facts are that Crows cause horrific damage not only to lambs but also to any poor sheep suffering from illness or simply quite a common thing of getting on its back and needing the shepherd to get it back on its feet.Really surprised that one should defend such agony against livestock and of course the Crow was here first but the nourishment from a lambs eye is not the difference between life and death for the crow.We feed loads of birds and dislike killing but certain thing such as Crows and Magpies will also wipe out a complete brood of birds,have seen them wipe out a dozen Ducklings so personally I make an exception in their case.
I am beginning to believe that there is a major difference between the scheme operating in Scotland and what is being proposed in Suffolk and it seems the main difference is compensation.
I don't think that Suffolk farmers should be treated any differently to their Scottish counterparts and if compensation is being paid in Scotland to "help oil the wheels" then I think something similar must be up for discussion in Suffolk.
If I were a farmer and was asked to co-operate with re-introducing these birds and knew that I was getting paid nothing while people elsewhere in the country were being paid money for their help I would feel unhappy.
Of course the question of compensation is down to the relevant Parties but with all the current unease re Scottish/English politics this could become a critical issue.
I would like to hear more from the farming point of view re this matter as to what other issues farmers have with this proposed scheme.
Hi LouLoudi think you are right about compensation and really I can obviously only speak for myself as a retired dairy farmer,raptor lover who the Eagles would not have affected anyway but probably understand farmers better than almost all other people who comment.
It is a simple proven fact that the crofters in a similar position created lots of trouble about Sea Eagles taking colossal numbers of lambs and when given compensation,silence,I would suggest that says it all and would guess the farmers in East Anglia must have seen what happened.Interestingly the area where the crofters were I think it was natural scotland spent over a £1,000 putting tags on 58 lambs and not one of those got taken.Almost certainly Sea Eagles take very small numbers if any of livestock and personally think the two parners in this need to spend lots of time with their experts explaining to worried farmers who have probably never seen these birds but have heard horror stories.Personally I think their worries are overstated but obviously if you think your livelyhood is threatened you want assurances. Can promise you RSPB has some real experts on Sea Eagles so it should not in theory be difficult to persuade these farmers but everything about Sea Eagles is kept unbelievably secret,some of which I understand as the egg thieves would have a field day,however the exact knowledge of what they take must be harmless you would think and they often take the samples from nests to see what has been eaten.Must stress this only personal opinion.From watching Sea Eagles feel sure except when feeding young they eat carrion mostly if available which on the Islands I believe the farmers are allowed to leave deadstock for them which in East Anglia think it is a very costly business something like £40 a time so they are not only getting compensation but saving substantial amounts on disposing of deadstock.Could not imagine that being allowed in East Anglia.
Hi Sooty,
I'm not suggesting you are anti-raptor and I'm not defending "agony against livestock" If you read my post I suggested the use of alternative methods to culling such as sheds which provide protection from a whole range of threats and allow the ewes to give birth somewhere that is safe. It would also provide somewhere safe for sick sheep to be if they are ill too. There are many threats to lambs and sheep and I personally think seeking a methods that reduces these risks when they are most vulnerable (e.g. lambing or illness) is a much better idea than leaving them where pretty much anything can happen be it crows, foxes, badgers, domestic dogs, sudden turn of weather even some yobs that decide to do them harm. As for crows wiping out complete broods of birds, again that it completely natural and plenty of other predators will do the same but I don't advocate culling them for doing something that is natural especially when birds are adapted to take heavy losses from each brood. Ducklings have many threats to face and corvids are just one of many but it only takes two to survive in a pairs lifetime to keep the population stable. I don't think penalising one threat is fair or justified, that is simply a part of nature that we have to accept takes place and it isn't our place to condemn any predator.
Cat owners that let their pets roam have far more to worry about than a bird of prey taking their cat so i don't think that has any place in this debate, if the owner choses to allow their pet to roam (and pose a threat to wildlife - what about those birds nests destroyed by a raiding, whiskers-fed, spoilt pet?) then they are accepting a vast number of risks that could result in their pet being injured or killed. It is their choice to let their pet roam free, if anything happens it is their fault because they made that choice and one less threat to garden birds removed. Remember - cats are a threat to birds just as much as crows are and they aren't controlled at all unless feral.
I do agree though that I think feeding the birds in winter may be a good idea and I share you concerns that there may be a lack of carrion available in Suffork. Up here there are a number of animals that die over the winter and throughout the year providing food for scavangers - deer, rabbit, hare, game birds, geese, sheep - and plenty left on the roads for them to get with all the pheasent around. Most of them probably aren't ever found by people as there is a lot of space out there for something to remain unseen (unless of course the scavangers give the location away). I don't know how much carrion is left out down in Suffork, but I suspect a lot of it would be cleared away to prevent it becoming a health risk or something.