Talk about the protection of Hen Harriers and Grouse Moors at my local indoor members group meeting

http://www.langholmproject.com

The information on the above website provides an interesting read on this topic.

I realise it's not much consolation to UK bird lovers, but as a species the hen harrier seems to be doing ok on a world scale. The numbers need to be watched apparantly. According to the French site I checked, in France the number of breeding couples has risen from around 1000 in 1975, to 3-4000 in 1990 & is now around 8000-11000. As they breed earlier those that nest in wheat fields have usually flown by the time they harvest, unlike the poor Montagues harrier. The world population is estimated at 70000 couples.

Thanks for the link Claire, it makes very interesting reading & perhaps a solution can be found.

Unknown said:

Some very interesting comments, on here only its not just hen harriers which are targets on the moors,its the merlins, the short eared owls, the occasional kestrel, and in recent times the red kite,and something else which can be as damaging, especially in Scotland and that's heather burning,in march time around golden eagle nest sites, I am afraid the poor hen harrier has been the brunt of all this mindless slaughter, hence why it is now almost extinct on our inland moorlands.

Heard a new one the other day,Mountain Hares are now being shot as there is a rumour that they can carry a virus to the poor old grouse

Simon Barnes has some interesting points on the subject in the latest RSPB magazine.

michael s said:

Roy,think there are a couple of faults in your comment,the agricultural pesticides and herbicides are not intended to cull any animals just control pests and diseases they are a sorry side affect.The pity is they are used not by farmers for poisoning Hen Harriers but by the Grouse shooters.

The other culling you mention is legal and for sure nothing legal in culling Hen Harriers.

All your comment is really irrelevant as all everyone is concerned with is the illegal persecution of Hen Harriers.

I didn't respond to this previously, but will do so now...

The illegal persecution of Hen Harriers (and other birds of prey - as mentioned by other posters) was not mentioned in the opening post on this thread, and the consequences of illegal persecution are, in my opinion, not under debate.

Illegal persecution negatively affects Hen Harriers and plays a part in preventing any possible recover of breeding Hen Harriers in England. I consider this to be a well established fact and I doubt that anyone would argue anything different. As I believe that everyone would agree with this, I don't see any real point in debating it. Illegal persecution needs to be stopped, and organisations like the RSPB do a very good job of raising awareness, campaigning against this crime, and (where possible) aiding prosecution of offenders.

The opening post, and some subsequent replies, raised other issues which I think are perhaps more interesting to debate, for instance the potential value in conserving moorland habitat, and even continuing legal management which is intended to help grouse numbers, regardless of whether or not the habitat is 'natural'. My comments on the use of agricultural pesticides and herbicides were not suggesting that they are being used illegally, I was pointing out that there are ways that the ecology of all habitats in the UK have been affected by man, so the fact that an ecosystem only exists in its current state because of human management is not necessarily a reason not to conserve it the way that it is now.

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What I would personally like to see is for illegal persecution to be targeted without any implication that it is known that the Hen Harrier population would recover if there was no persecution - it might and we need persecution to stop before we can find out if any other action is needed, but it isn't known to be the case. The Langholm study (linked by Claire in an above post) is an interesting one because it shows that the conservation of raptors on grouse moors can be possible. The link from the Langholm Project website to the Natural England Hen Harrier tagging project's blog is also interesting - unfortunately on this post the blogger has, apparently without any evidence whatsoever, jumped to the conclusion that "the most likely explanation" for a tracker ceasing to transmit is "illegal persecution". Posting assumptions like this does nothing at all to help the situation, and I fully agree with the comment attached to the blog post by 'Raymondo'.

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Noisette's comments about the Hen Harrier numbers in France are interesting (I knew they were increasing but hadn't seen any figures). I believe that they have also shown some increases in other adjacent parts of the continent, but perhaps slight to moderate declines in Scandinavia. It is therefore not unlikely that there will be more breeding attempts in southern England in the future as the populations to the south continue to expand - if  there is sufficient food available for them, and they can breed successfully on heathland/farmland habitats in England. 

Unknown said:

unfortunately on this post the blogger has, apparently without any evidence whatsoever, jumped to the conclusion that "the most likely explanation" for a tracker ceasing to transmit is "illegal persecution". Posting assumptions like this does nothing at all to help the situation, and I fully agree with the comment attached to the blog post by 'Raymondo'.

It is often the case Roy,jump on the shooting fraternity first,it is unfortunate that in our area,surrounded by grouse moors as we are , the keepers are quite often guilty.

THIS is the source of my data of hen harrier populations & the whole page makes interesting reading. Its in French but could possibly be google translated. It comes from an LPO site devoted to raptors.