I live in a rural area close to Lowestoft and the sign below is one of dozens being erected by the farmers/landowners vehemently opposed to the introduction of these birds locally.
I understand the Norfolk farming lobby have successfully prevented these birds being introduced to Norfolk and now have Suffolk in their sights.
Given the disgraceful and illegal killing of birds of prey still being carried out by various groups I wonder whether this kind of advertising campaign encourages this kind of appalling behaviour.
It seems to me that Scotland successfully re-introduced these wonderful birds without problem and perhaps this is yet another example of the prejudice against birds of prey which seems endemic in many of our landowners and farmers.
Final thought, if the majority of people want these birds how can they challenge this campaign as most of us don't have thousands of acres on which to advertise our views.
Hi Kat surely if keeping sheep safe was as easy as you try to make out do you not think of all the thousands of shepherds they would not be doing it just like all animals sheep give no warning that they are going to be ill or roll on their back and not get up not all farmers can possibly have enough sheds and that also comes with big problems of disease being so close together and with a coat desgned to be outside brings other problems anyway.
Respect your view that you don't by the sound of it think any animal should be killed but where farming is concerned would suggest farmers know best .
Am bound to wonder if you allow any of your pets to eat anything that has been killed,all sorts of things in dog food and understand Geckos eat crickets,mealworms and even mice but I bet that you think that different to shepherd protecting his sheep in the only practical way for him.
A very interesting thread everyone and well discussed between everyone.
I would like to add my tuppence worth if that is alright with everyone. Slightly off topic to begin with but you will find out why as I explain myself to people.
I hope that you do not mind me saying what I have to say .... Sooty...about Farmers ...???
I am not a farmer, and never have been, but having said that I have had experience of living as a tenent on a working farm in Scotland for a period of 3 years. Dave and I went through 3 years of watching lambing as it took place in the barn close to the Farmhouse. There was also a herd of cows that where owned by the same farmer and they remained in the fields close-by to the farmhouse we stayed in.
It was quite an eye opener to getting a better understanding the issues about livestock like sheep, and cattle, along with all the problems that they have with living outdoors. Of course there is the subject of what happens to livestock when the animals produce youngsters, become ill and the issues attached
In this area of Scotland there where a lot of resident Red Kites and they are protected as we all know and there was no reports of any killings at all. The birds where monitored by a Kite 'person' everyday so the birds where monitored, and watched over. I was told never to tell anyone of their locality and I never did. I think the person who took care of the Kites was concerned for them at that point in time.
Anyway to continue the story.
I was quite moritified how some of the farming was done, and the animals looked after. The farmer in this case hated Foxes and each weekend he asked for an expert to come in to shot the local foxes which he belived where killing his lambs - wrong!
Now right you say - I found it quite hard to believe that a Fox was capable of killing an animal a lot larger than itself. The theory is to me that the Fox would have picked the weakest lambs and made a meal for itself. So the farmer decided that all foxes should be eradicated - he hated them - why?
On top of that when his lambs or Sheep died he place the carasses in the open fields to rot. The stench of death was overbearing and I felt quite ill with it while I lived at the Farmhouse.
One of the adult cows died, and there was a huge hole dug in one of the field. The farmer threw in the body into the large hole, and he added the 'dead' sheep when he felt like moving them. The rate of dead animals was small thank goodness - but there was the daily lambs that where thrown in - still borns and the likes.
One morning I woke up and saw something in the garden outside of the kitchen window and it was a leg of a sheep in the garden area. The farmer said sorry the 'farm' dog must have got it.
So after this long story how can a farmer turn around and blame BoP's and what nature does naturally. My experience of this Farm and the way it was run was a disgrace and yet the Farmer blamed the local foxes for killing his lambs.
With the subject of this thread about BoP's, to me this represents ignorance at its worst - blame foxes, BoP's, crows. for taking lambs because the Farmers Husbandry skills where much to be desired. Blame Badgers for Bovine TB etc,,, it all blame, blame, and blame.
To be honest I think a lot of Farm husbandry is the biggest cause of problems going on within a Farming area.
I still remember seeing rows of Crows tied to wire fences and that was distastful too. Thank goodness that has stopped.
As for landowners who enjoy shooting game, and hate BoP's I cannot even say how I feel at that thought.
Just my personal views!
Regards
Kathy and Dave
michael s said: Hi Kat surely if keeping sheep safe was as easy as you try to make out do you not think of all the thousands of shepherds they would not be doing it just like all animals sheep give no warning that they are going to be ill or roll on their back and not get up not all farmers can possibly have enough sheds and that also comes with big problems of disease being so close together and with a coat desgned to be outside brings other problems anyway. Respect your view that you don't by the sound of it think any animal should be killed but where farming is concerned would suggest farmers know best . Am bound to wonder if you allow any of your pets to eat anything that has been killed,all sorts of things in dog food and understand Geckos eat crickets,mealworms and even mice but I bet that you think that different to shepherd protecting his sheep in the only practical way for him.
They use sheds for lambing successfully elsewhere where wolves are an issue, why not here? I understand that animals don't often show disease well, but then what would happen? Would it be a case of kill or cure for that sheep? If an animal doesn't show illness until it is too late to help it what is wrong with a predator laying claim to it?
I don't DISAGREE with culling, but I firmly believe that culling should be a last resort, not something turned to straight away. I've seen people with chickens (garden chickens) who turn around wanting to shoot a fox rather than work at using methods to prevent the fox attacking the chickens in the first place such as electric fences which many people do use successfully to protect their birds. There are other practical alternative methods to protect livestock, they are used elsewhere afterall but it seems to be the case that someone would chose the gun rather than anything else whether fox, eagle or crow.
Of course my pets get food, I actually by dog food that supports UK farmers as it has UK ingredients, my snake gets his mice and my geckos get their crickets - though how that is relevent I don't know as I don't think the people who farm crickets go around with a gun shooting at spiders! I eat meat myself, don't have a problem with animals being killed but you're just twisting the argument. Just because I think it is high time that other practical methods were sought rather than sticking with just culling because that is the easiest option, that wrong? Wanting to see a change a way from culling to other non-lethal methods?
There should be something in between, not an immediate "kill it" response.
Millie & Fly the Border Collies
Blackbird nowhere will you find I condemn BOP particularly red kites which I doubt have ever damaged lambs almost eat only scavenged stuff,nowhere will you find me condemning foxes,no way will I defend the person you speak of but I do think you may be falling into something I dislike whatever occupation or thing it is by lumping everyone together.Of course you are welcome to add your tuppence and hope my answer may alter your opinion of all farmers.All groups without exception have bad apples and suspect that my opinion of him maybe even lower than yours.Absolutely no defence for leaving dead animals around and sympathise with you as I feel sure except perhaps on Mull and just possibly one or two remote islands where special permission is given for them to be left for Sea Eagles think it is a serious offence not to pay to take them to incinerator..I don't shoot but assure you all landowners do not hate BOP and I think you will only ever find in my comments my distaste is Crows pecking sheeps eyes out and don't think anything will change my mind on that one.
Can only ask you not to judge us all by the bad eggs in the basket.
Hope I have not opened up a bigger can of worms but assure you it is all fact as far as I know it.
Hi Kat no sometimes a sheep gets on its back and just needs standing up and holding for couple of minutes to get its balance,sometimes a shortage of calcium means that until you get to them and inject calcium they cannot move and in both cases which are probably the two main problems after treatment will be perfectly healthy as long as the crows have left them alone.You will have noticed I have only said anything about crows,nothing abou foxes,birds of prey or anything else but for sure trying to lamb large numbers of sheep indoors in sheds brings its own problems.One being of course no way can you justify expensive building for use of one month and quite often most suitable buildings are in use for other things.
Don't think you will believe me but if there were a simple answer shepherds would use it and can promise you have seen sheperds feeding other animals with their sheep particularly Hares that are starving when snow on ground and they still had it in for crows so it seems to be a dislike of one thing.
Missed the bit about Badger and it is a massive subject but we had dairy herd for 28 years and looked after other peoples cows for 15 years and had Badgers on the farms in setts all that time and never had any trouble with TB,the whole family loved the Badgers and we were told that best to leave well alone as if we removed them infected ones may colonise the setts and cause us problems,now obviously don't know if this can be proved.Believe the testing of farm animals against TB is absolutely colossal and would have to ask you if doubting me to find it on internet.For sure even though like Badgers feel sure some wildlife is spreading TB to cattle perhaps even years ago caught it from cattle.Would have thought in these hi-tech days they could be caught,tested and if clean released an area at a time or even vaccinated.There are instances of farmers having herds slaughtered,how traumatic that must be because infected with TB,then leaving farm empty until clean,restocking with tested clean animals and all getting infected again,not only costly and sad for farmer but very expensive for taxpayer.Sadly that makes me think that certain areas wildlife of some description must carry TB.Must add that we are retired and have Badgers close by,sometimes in garden and we look after the sett and feed them with about 3 neighbours helping.Would hate to be called a Badger hater,you can see I hope that we are not all the same and bet in your district you would have some ordinary people who would not be wildlife lovers or you are exceptionly lucky.
Hi Sooty
Sorry to be slow on the mark here
I really hope that what i have experienced is a one off here
Not to condemn all farmers, but I have to think hygeine is the No.1 priority if you ask me.
To me farmers need to have records of all the lamb deaths they have etc..... Then place a comparasion to what is true, and is a lie.
Just leave BoP's, Foxes. Badgers. and all natural wildlife alone simple as that
Hi Blackbird can only repeat leaving dead animals like that must be illegal,can't really say anymore could I but bet that information would be on internet or ring local animal health department.In all walks of life you will find people breaking the law.
Hi Blackbird sorry to come back but look at
GUIDANCE ON DISPOSAL OF FARM ANIMAL CARCASES
in the UK of course on the internet
michael s said: Hi Kat no sometimes a sheep gets on its back and just needs standing up and holding for couple of minutes to get its balance,sometimes a shortage of calcium means that until you get to them and inject calcium they cannot move and in both cases which are probably the two main problems after treatment will be perfectly healthy as long as the crows have left them alone.You will have noticed I have only said anything about crows,nothing abou foxes,birds of prey or anything else but for sure trying to lamb large numbers of sheep indoors in sheds brings its own problems.One being of course no way can you justify expensive building for use of one month and quite often most suitable buildings are in use for other things. Don't think you will believe me but if there were a simple answer shepherds would use it and can promise you have seen sheperds feeding other animals with their sheep particularly Hares that are starving when snow on ground and they still had it in for crows so it seems to be a dislike of one thing.
Thank you for explaining about the calcium, geckos can have a similar problem too though they can be long-term side effects if they have too little calcium for too long! I didn't realise sheep suffered from the same thing too, very interesting to discover that! Is it connected to them producing lambs or just something that happens without any noticeable reason behind it?
I understand what you are saying, and in all honesty I know it won't change a thing as crows are culled even when there are no livestock around to protect (at least they are around here anyway), but if eagles where to be a problem for whatever reason - lack of carrion, sheep being in much smaller fields rather than roaming across the mountainsides etc - having a shed (or a roof over the lambing area) could have some place in protecting lambs in the first couple of days, but there are probably various other ways to compromise. If the compromise is simply compensation then fair enough, as long as the eagles aren't persecuted back into exctintion again. Farmers have already done a lot to change the way they do things to benefit wildlife, some of it through paid schemes others through their own choice and they are still working to change things to sustain both their farming and the wildlife they have on their land. I do firmly believe that if farmers have concerns, they can find a way to solve the problem in a way that benefits them and the eagle I just think they need the support to do so.