Please see http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/8286034/Magpies-and-crows-to-be-culled-to-protect-songbirds.html
This is bad on an epic scale. A hugely undesirable precedent, interfering with natural processes on the basis of bad science (or no science at all), a tiny pressure group apparently driving the agenda, and no apparent action by the authorities to, at least, explain what is actually going on (though the Telegraph might have missed it).
This is indeed a black day for biodiversity.
Every day a little more irate about bird of prey persecution, and I have a cat - Got a problem with that?
Ian H said: Hi all Just a reminder that we are happy for forum users to use this forum to discuss topics strongly but please do so in a polite manner and respect other peoples entitlement to their opinions. It is obvious on such an emotive issue that feelings will run high on all sides but please, keep it calm. Just to address a couple of points that were raised, firstly Sooty, you may see large aggregations of magpies over winter as many will gather in communal roosts. However they are unlikely to stay at such a high density through the year as during the breeding season most of them should pair up and defend a territory from other magpies. Those not able to do so may form a roving flock of non-breeding birds. As few species are nesting over the winter months i doubt that the high number of magpies currently roosting in your area are having an impact on nesting birds and they should have dispersed by the main breeding season. Secondly, the cirl bunting reintroduction project is aimed at re-establishing the cirl bunting back into Cornwall. The project uses birds taken under license from the naturally recovering population in Devon for this and you can see how well it is going via the link here and here. The Devon population has been successful due to great partnership work between local farmers, the RSPB and Natural England. On the issue of corvid predation and the impacts on songbirds specifically, all the research to date (RSPB, GWCT and BTO as have been mentioned on this thread) points to other factors being responsible for any declines. Whilst declines in farmland specialists are linked with changes in farming methods, declines in woodland birds and some generalists and urban birds show links to problems with their habitats and food supply. House sparrows have been shown to struggle to find sufficient insect prey to raise healthy young, starlings and swifts roof nesting sites are under threat through new building techniques and many woodland species have declined through the degradation of their woodland habitats. As you can see from the link here, the RSPB does not object to appropriate and targeted predator control in situations where it has been proven to be essential for species recovery. However we do find it frustrating that corvids are continually used as a smokescreen to deflect the attention away from the real conservation issues behind the decline of many songbird species.
Hi all
Just a reminder that we are happy for forum users to use this forum to discuss topics strongly but please do so in a polite manner and respect other peoples entitlement to their opinions. It is obvious on such an emotive issue that feelings will run high on all sides but please, keep it calm.
Just to address a couple of points that were raised, firstly Sooty, you may see large aggregations of magpies over winter as many will gather in communal roosts. However they are unlikely to stay at such a high density through the year as during the breeding season most of them should pair up and defend a territory from other magpies. Those not able to do so may form a roving flock of non-breeding birds. As few species are nesting over the winter months i doubt that the high number of magpies currently roosting in your area are having an impact on nesting birds and they should have dispersed by the main breeding season.
Secondly, the cirl bunting reintroduction project is aimed at re-establishing the cirl bunting back into Cornwall. The project uses birds taken under license from the naturally recovering population in Devon for this and you can see how well it is going via the link here and here. The Devon population has been successful due to great partnership work between local farmers, the RSPB and Natural England.
On the issue of corvid predation and the impacts on songbirds specifically, all the research to date (RSPB, GWCT and BTO as have been mentioned on this thread) points to other factors being responsible for any declines. Whilst declines in farmland specialists are linked with changes in farming methods, declines in woodland birds and some generalists and urban birds show links to problems with their habitats and food supply. House sparrows have been shown to struggle to find sufficient insect prey to raise healthy young, starlings and swifts roof nesting sites are under threat through new building techniques and many woodland species have declined through the degradation of their woodland habitats.
As you can see from the link here, the RSPB does not object to appropriate and targeted predator control in situations where it has been proven to be essential for species recovery. However we do find it frustrating that corvids are continually used as a smokescreen to deflect the attention away from the real conservation issues behind the decline of many songbird species.
Thanks for your comment Ian and did think that while several strong opinions expressed on this thread it had not got anywhere near being abusive but a good reminder all the same.Personally thought it had been conducted in quite a polite way given the subject and almost without exception people had strong views but respected other peoples opinion.
Nice that you find time to take part as feel sure you have lots of other duties.
Hello Ian, thank you for your contribution.
I agree with all you say. I would however point out that in my experience, there are an increasing number of 1st & 2nd year non-breeders <> 60% that do flock throughout the year. These flocks can have a home range of 50 acres or more.
Breeding pairs will defend a home territory of <> 10 acres, and the non breeders will roam fairly widely. They can and do congregate in good feeding areas, and this does result in non- viable numbers of magpies in some areas, to the detriment of prey species.
Magpie productivity is much higher now than previously, resulting in more than a trebling in their numbers since 1970.
"Whilst declines in farmland specialists are linked with changes in farming methods, declines in woodland birds and some generalists and urban birds show links to problems with their habitats and food supply."
That would suffice as an explanation if you are looking at farming changes post 1945 - 1990's.
However, why have we not seen a recovery in songbird and farmland birds in response to the various improvements in farming methods over last decade. ( Far less inputs, more schemes to encourage wildlife, Entry & Higher level stewardship, beetle banks, cover crops, field margins conservation strips, FWAG's etc. )
davidbinos said: However, why have we not seen a recovery in songbird and farmland birds in response to the various improvements in farming methods over last decade. ( Far less inputs, more schemes to encourage wildlife, Entry & Higher level stewardship, beetle banks, cover crops, field margins conservation strips, FWAG's etc. )
I think a lot of that could be down to inconsistency - on some farms the area left for wildlife changes every year or every other year on a rotational basis which means the habitat doesn't have time to develop the communities needed to support birds. Not to mention the government/EU always seemed to be flittering from one new idea to the next telling farmers to do this or that from their offices in the middle of the city coming up with generalised ideas for "improvements" and things that should be done. The more isolated these areas are on the farm, the worse it will be as it takes even longer for the invertebrate community to establish - and this is needed for the birds and to spread plants and pollinate the plants etc. It takes several years for these miniature communities to develop and sometimes I think that in areas left for wildlife aren't left for long enough for this to establish to a point where there are good numbers for recolonising a new site. Some farms are thriving with loads of wildlife and I think the key to finding out the difference is to look at what these are doing differently. If there is a farm with hares and skylarks, hawks and kestrels, warblers and finches and a nearby farm without then the main priority should be to look at what is being done differently and also to remember that there is no such thing as instant results.
We do have that around here, though the differences are pretty obvious in all honesty as one farm leaves significant boundaries around the edge of fields and large patches of left land whereas one of the others with poor numbers of birds and other wildlife does not. But having one farm that is good for wildlife surrounded by unsuitable land is no good for maintaining healthy populations either, it isn't sustainable over the longer term.
There are some farms out there that excell in protecting wildlife, there are others that are getting there, others that are struggling for one reason or another and others that aren't doing anything. I think there is too much though of trying to tick government boxes when the government coming up with these ideas is at the other end of the country and will jump on whatever new bandwagon that happens to come along. They key I think is to looking at the ones that excell and see what they are doing that can give a boost to those that are getting there and both of these to help those that are struggling. It may be the case that certain species (not necessarily corvids) are proving to be detrimental to the recovery but this needs looking at on a case by case basis not a widespread "one metod fits all" attitude to see what methods can be used to alter the situation. Culling corvids may not be the answer - the answer could be reducing deer grazing so shrubs can establish or adding shrubs/trees that deer find less appertising for example so that the birds have safer nesting sites.
Millie & Fly the Border Collies
Thanks for you comment Sooty, always a pleasure to contribute, talking about birds and wildlife on the communities is a welcome distraction sometimes!
Hello David
Interesting comments about magpies there, whilst some of it may be true from your own experience, other studies cited in the BWP show different findings, worth a read if you can get hold of a copy. The percentage of non-breeders varies greatly depending on population density and quality of habitat. One of the cited studies shows that non-breeding flocks consist of around 81% 1st year birds, 17% 2nd year and 2% older, thought to be ex-breeders. These non-breeding birds have been shown to make up anywhere between 20% and 60% in various studies and one study in Denmark showed them to make up only 5% of the population. Interestingly it is thought that these amalgamations of non-breeding birds form in areas with a locally abundant food resource. As magpies are omnivorous the food supply could well be invertebrates, amphibians, mammals, worms, carrion and birds. These non-breeding flocks have a large range where they will forage.
Magpies are site faithful birds that will remain in their territories for a number of years, keeping back other magpies. An average territory size in Northern England is 5ha but you will always find that population density is driven by habitat quality (suitable nesting sites, food availibility).
Magpies may have increased since the 1970's, the figures in the state of the birds of the UK show that it is just under double, not trebled as you stated. That is due to a number of factors inluding the recovery of the population after DDT was banned. However, you fail to mention that the magpie population has stabilised over the last fifteen years or so, (BBS survey period 1995-2008 actually shows a decline of 3%). This inteligent and adaptable species has learnt to survive in the changing landscape and now exists at a stable population level.
With regards to your last comments we will have to disagree there. With regards to farmland specialists It has been shown at Hope farm and various other farms across the UK that have put these measures into place that it can have a benefit for wild bird populations and biodiversity in general. As more and more land is managed through these schemes we will hopefully see further signs of recovery. I'll post some more information on the science to back this up later this week.
As for 'songbirds' many species which fall into this category (you could include magpies as they are passerines too!) are doing very well indeed including goldfinch, chaffinch, blue tit, robin and blackbird. In fact the latest figures show that in recent years even the bullfinch, song thrush and tree sparrow are starting to make a recovery.
Food for thought Mr Binos!
Warden Intern at Otmoor.
"There are some farms out there that excell in protecting wildlife, there are others that are getting there, others that are struggling for one reason or another and others that aren't doing anything. I think there is too much though of trying to tick government boxes when the government coming up with these ideas is at the other end of the country and will jump on whatever new bandwagon that happens to come along. They key I think is to looking at the ones that excell and see what they are doing that can give a boost to those that are getting there and both of these to help those that are struggling."
I think you are spot on KatTai.
"Magpies may have increased since the 1970's, the figures in the state of the birds of the UK show that it is just under double, not trebled as you stated."
Sorry Ian, my mistake, that should have read 1940's. In fact since the 1970's the increase has stablized a fraction.
Without waving red flags, there is a direct correlation between the decrease in game-keepered land and increase in magpies since the second world of war.
In regards farm habitat, again I would agree with KatTai "There are some farms out there that excell in protecting wildlife, there are others that are getting there, others that are struggling for one reason or another and others that aren't doing anything."
However, I am in no doubt that generally, things are better now than 10 or 20 years ago. if not, then all the work of RSPB and G&WCT and the various NGO's has been for nought. Again, not wishing to antagonize the anti shooting people, and ignoring predator control, many, if not most of the shooting estates have gone a long way to providing suitable habitat, that tends to be long term rather than transient. Albeit in their aim to improve game bird habitat, but with huge knock-on benefits for many birds. Drive around any part of the UK, and when you see farms that have conservations strips, beetle banks, feeders, game and feed cover, areas left wild and with stubble left longer, new native woodland etc. and the chances are that it is an estate or farm where shooting is managed.
There are also a lot more farmers around this last decade or so, with no interest in shooting, but who have gone to great expense and trouble to create and maintain more wildlfie friendly habitat.
There is a tendency in many people to hanker back to some 'golden age" when the UK was a pristine environment for wildlife. That has not existed since man first crawled out of the caves and discovered fire. The country-side as we know it is not natural, it is man created, and is in a continuously evolving state.
In general terms, if it were not for the farmers and the shooting land-owning class, we would have much less suitable habitat to worry about conserving. The land they manage, to me at any rate, is a bastion against the ever-encroaching greed of builders, industrialists, peoples housing needs, and the smog producing industries and internal combustion engine with its toxic emissions and noise.
So lets give farmers a well deserved pat on the back! Apart from feeding our bodies, they feed our need for solitude in nature. ( No, I am not a farmer )
Ian H said: With regards to your last comments we will have to disagree there. With regards to farmland specialists It has been shown at Hope farm and various other farms across the UK that have put these measures into place that it can have a benefit for wild bird populations and biodiversity in general. As more and more land is managed through these schemes we will hopefully see further signs of recovery. I'll post some more information on the science to back this up later this week.
Just a quick follow up regarding my comments above, here is a link to a news story that you may have read yesterday regarding corn buntings increasing on land in agri-environment schemes. You can access the paper from the Journal for applied ecology here. If you want any further information on the sort of management options that can help corn buntings and other farmland birds please have a look at our farming and conservation web pages.
Think you may have a bit of contradiction there Ian as you seem to suggest if I read it correctly that you do not consider farmers doing much for farmland birds and praise Hope Farm.
My opinion is that only a proportion of farmers will take on improving wildlife after all only something like 2% of population interested in wildlife whereas 100% want feeding so RSPB has to keep these things in context.
contradiction as well about Corn Buntings as it is really the farmers who if they had not been bird friendly the project would have failed and really farmers the main providers to the scheme and indeed by the time RSPB bought some land to help the C B had increased approx 800%.
Farmers in my opinion cannot make a living if profit to them was the same as RSPB share of Hope Farm as my calculations seem to suggest that a working farmer would go broke at those profits and of course farmers have to have a different attitude to farming than a charity with lots of financial backing and very unfair to compare the two.
Hi Sooty
I think you may have misinterpreted my previous comment, the research i linked to backs up the comments i made regarding evidence to show that wildlife friendly farming measures are proving to be helping farmland birds like the corn bunting. Have you read the article and the research paper yet?
The accounts from Hope farm can be seen here. As you can see from the accompanying text, your assumptions about the way it is operated and the profitability are incorrect.
Basically, what we are saying is that wildlife friendly farming methods need to be given a fair crack of the whip and the research so far shows that they do work. The RSPB offers free advice and back up to help any farmers get the best from wildlife friendly farming methods, hence why i linked to our web pages. Hope this clears up any confusion.
Do not doubt that what Hope Farm and indeed many more farms than people realise help birds but they are limited by constraints such as mortgage repayments and I doubt the income that RSPB get from H F would fund mortgage repayments.
Wendy S said:A friend of my wife has a petition against this appaling cull running here..... http://pixiepaj.com/wildlifevillage/?page_id=782
It is RIGGED - I went to sign it and my email address has already been used to sign up! Speaking with others I find that the same has happened to them. Someone has been cherry-picking email addresses and signing the petition in their name - this is NOT ON! I thought we lived in a fair and democratic society?