Far too much bird ringing

Hi Pipit,

I agree with your comment - but would you not also agree that if a member posts a view which is against the flow of opinion the comments are at best derogatory?

Claire

I sometimes wonder why people get so hot under the collar on this forum when people express different opinions on here!  It's good to debate, I think!

As to ringing, we can agree that it is a great research tool, but we can never really know what the birds are feeling about it!  We base our assumptions on the fact that they seem to get on with their lives as normal afterwards!

Personally, I've often wondered how the whooper swans really feel about having to fly to Iceland and back with a little transmitter attached to them!

ClaireM said:

Hi Pipit,

I agree with your comment - but would you not also agree that if a member posts a view which is against the flow of opinion the comments are at best derogatory?

Claire

Thanks for replying.

Some comments are, some aren't. It depends how strongly a person feels I suppose. I am totally against derogatory remarks, which, in my view, should, and usually do, get deleted by the mods.

This thread started with some strong remarks which have been met with strong reaction. I think the poster was encouraging this to happen, in my view.

Cheers

Pipit

Keeta said:

Personally, I've often wondered how the whooper swans really feel about having to fly to Iceland and back with a little transmitter attached to them!

Just on that last point, Keeta.

Did you see that programme on the Snow Leopards a few months ago?

They are unbelieveably beautiful animals but it did give me an uncomfortable feeling seeing the huge transmitter attached to them. I can understand why the researchers need to keep tabs on them for conservation reasons but it was a sad sight all the same.

Pipit

Unknown said:

Did you see that programme on the Snow Leopards a few months ago?

They are unbelieveably beautiful animals but it did give me an uncomfortable feeling seeing the huge transmitter attached to them. I can understannd why the researchers need to keep tabs on them for conservation reasons but it was a sad sight all the same.

Hi Pipit,

No, I unfortunately missed that, but I can imagine I would have felt the same way.

I'm confused - what has the number of post to do with the topic? I despair. Claire

Sorry to go against the flow but cannot see why most people seem to be so upset.I will set out a few facts as I see them 1)his choice of name means absolutely nothing 2)he is a wildlife lover 3)do not think he intended to cause a disturbance but just like myself had a different view and quite honestly I Would have thought for and against would be 50/50 which just shows unless posting you can never know4)read the original thread and it says far too much bird ringing and nowhere Think he does not say that we have not gained information that has helped us all.

Think his main point is along the lines that I think,having worked with farm animals all my life I can assure anyone that when you do something with them that is out of the daily routine they are immediately traumatised and no person will convince me that netting a wild bird and it hanging there for a while,its feathers being disturbed,handled by human beings that was never intended the bird cannot be anything but traumatised.

Sorry if this upsets people but point out once again not against ringing just think far too much and if people traumatised by V M thread then I bet it is nothing compared to a netted bird. 

A list from a recent site goes like this128 Blackcap,49 Chiffchaff,2 Garden Warblers,2 Willow Warblers,5 Whitethroat,3 Sedge Warblers,3 Redstart,3 Tre Pipit,21 Meadow Pipit,21 Whinchat and this goes on day after day on loads of sites,seems too much to me

So many birds have to be ringed to ensure that enough are firstly spotted again (when it comes to birds with shorter lifespans this is often unlikely) and secondly to ensure that enough data comes back because no doubt many people won't think of notifying someone when they find a dead ringed bird in their garden.  Of the sheer number of birds that are ringed the return is only 1-2% (if I remember rightly when I looked into bird ringing to compare with shark tagging).  Now, when that is for hundreds of thousands of birds, that does leave good numbers to draw probably conclusions in regards to the birds movements, lifespans etc.  Particularly for migrating birds that are declining, it is vital to know exactly where they are migrating to so that any conservation issues can be dealt with at both ends.  Protecting a migrating species where it spends the summer is pointless if their numbers are then decimated in their wintering grounds.  A species can't be conserved unless people know about the threats they face and where the problems lie, this can be connected to age group e.g. higher than normal losses of juveniles before their first year but after they have left their parents, problems on migration or problems at a winter or summer grounds.  We need methods of collecting the data to conserve a species and ringing is a simple but an effective methods due to the number of birds that are ringed.

Bird ringing works because of the sheer numbers of birds that are ringed all around the world that allow a large enough data set to be collected and analysed.

Now, tagging would be far less effective for birds that are more scarce because the chances of finding them again are considerably lower and this is where satelite tracking devices come in to their own such as the case of the bald ibises that are tracked on the RSPB site.  In regards to the snow leopard, I can understand why she was collared but like others I don't really understand why such a big, bulky, noticeable collar had to be used.  While her prey might not be able to see the colour of the collar, human poachers certainly will be able to and this could leave her at significantly more threat especially as she does live close to human habitation where there was previously a conflict between people and the leopards.  In this instance, I question the sanity of using something so noticeable though I can understand the need to know what sort of home range she has as this in turn can lead to better estimates of what sort of area is needed to hold a sustainanable population of snow leopards.

Now, I mentioned shark tagging earlier on as the effectiveness of this was questioned on another forum and as far fewer sharks are tagged (hundreds compared to hundreds of thousands) so it is therefore much more difficult to draw conclusions and with sharks, along with many other marine species, satelite tracking has been the most effective tool.  Among the biggest problems is in order to conserve a marine species, knowing where it is in terms of deapth is also a very useful piece of information.  A shark or turtle could effectively be seen as swimming through a fishing fleet, but if they were swimming at 400 feet at the fishing was at 200 feet there is no real risk there.  Tagging in these cases, because the chances of recapture are so low, can only really say something was tagged here and then recaputured over there it doesn't really indicate what threats there are on route because the route isn't known because there is no one there to watch them swim passed and record their tag number, whereas across the world there are bird watchers watching for birds and hopefully at least a handful of those will be able to make a note of the ring number and pass it to the relevent organisation.

Sorry, ClaireM,  but in the experience of some of us on here, some people come onto the Site just to stir up trouble ....now, before anyone starts protesting about poor V. Meldrew, I have to add that the reason its viewed with suspicion is that unless someone has already been posting in a usual way before jumping in and being, let's say, rather controversial, then it is bound to be viewed as rather suspicious....  so now, lets wait and see, and in the meantime have a 'normal' debate.   :-)