20 years of shame

Unknown said:

Cats are instinctual Sooty, they kill birds because over 1000's of years of domestication they still have not lost the wild part of thier behaviour to hunt.

Most cat owners dont want to see thier cats kill birds and most cats dont want to stay indoors.

Its a weak argument against the facts of humans actually deliberately poisoning and shooting birds of prey.

 

Regards

Craig

We have established that the persecution of BoP is a terrible thing and action must be taken but am amazed of the cat comments by a RSPB member and presumably a passionate birder!?

People are often dismayed or appalled when a Sparrowhawk takes the birds from their garden but an apparent silence when cats take them. Even a small mention of the benefits of a bell collar when the RSPB is promoting the garden bird surveys would surely be good?!

In addition to the 55 million birds Sooty, there will be all the numerous mammal and amphibian deaths too.

Re Sept 17^th, lol. Why would anyone kill a chicken with a shotgun? It would be illegal for most people for a start. Here's hoping your supermarket purchase is free-range.

Hi Owl,

Glad to see you are in support against the persecution of BoP.

First I was replying to Sooty's thread regarding the RSPB's lack of work on the population of cats killing birds.

It is not just home owners cats but also feral cats that do this, and cats have a tendancy to kill birds because of an old instinct that is inbuilt; humans on the otherhand can make rational decisions on what they do, that is one of the reasons why we are an intelligent species.

I dont know why you are amazed at the "cat" comment but if you read what I have written I am clearly against cats killing birds; that pretty much goes without saying and being that I am a RSPB member is even more clear in how I feel about this.

... But cats do kill birds. Even in the Looney tunes cartoon - Tweetie pie always had the persistant domestic Sylvester trying to eat him in every episode; its a  fact of life even if it is played out in a kids TV show.

People with cats shouldn't have to have thier hand held by the RSPB when it comes to ownership, it is common sense to prevent thier own cat from killing a wild bird.

If a Sparrowhawk take a bird from the garden so be it; It's a wild animal and thats what Sparrowhawks do to survive but if a cat takes a bird then it is different and no one including cat owners likes to see thier pet killing a wild bird (even a Sparrowhawk!!!)

Re Sept 17th - I know its illegal to kill a bird with a shotgun; but tell that to the game keepers who kill BoP!

Regards

Craig

"People with cats shouldn't have to have thier hand held by the RSPB when it comes to ownership..." Ergo the RSPB shouldn’t do anything to highlight the death of millions of birds, mammals and amphibians.

Crikey, I’ll have to agree to disagree with you on that one, Craig!

Common sense is not as half as prevalent as it names suggests it ought to be amongst much of the human race! If people didn’t need their hand holding then I and the many others who work in environmental conservation, and many other charities for that matter, would have a lot less to do!

Hi owl

I dont really get what you want from this thread because we both feel strongly about the persecution of BoP (that is the main subject here)

Yes millions of birds, mammals, Amphibians, reptiles, sharks, fish, insects die due to persecution this is done most of time for profit related reasons and survival. We can try our hardest in what ever way to save them all but we know this isnt always the case.

The RSPB have many conservation efforts going on around the world and they could promote public awareness about owners keeping thier cats from killing birds but you and me and everyone else knows this is a waste of resources (plus mine and everyone elses money) when it can be spent on other more important efforts.

I think we do not give enough credit to people who admire and care about thier local wildlife but unless you put a cat curfew in place then I am afraid we are kidding ourselves that wild birds, fish, mammals, reptiles and amphibians will be unharmed. I have lots of cats in my local area and to be honest the bird populations here are thriving.

There are millions of pets that roam the streets that can cause harm to wildlife but then there are millions of cars that drive too fast on the roads that can run us over. Its a fact of life. Its not pretty and I dont like it but it happens.

The difference in educating a poor family in indonesia who rely on the persecution of sharks and thier fins as an income is a higher prioriety cause for concern and conservation than someone in an English middle class suburbia who leaves their cat flap open all day and night.

Thanks

Craig

These are the finding of other organizations and not my sole views but it would be nice to know why the rspb is focusing only on birds of prey and not other birds that are in danger and yes I like birds of prey and also have these birds myself as I am a falconer there are reports that the rspb does this as it is a good way to make money. can I have a response in stead of being deleted like last time as I would be happy to support the rspb but find to much evidence that contradicts its own finding. even in it your own report i found  over the 20 years of shame the amount of reported bird of prey prosecuted was less then what the rspb said there was in 2009.

The findings of the charity’s controversial Birdcrime 2009 report receive a poor response from the shooting community

The National Gamekeepers’ Organisation (NGO) and the Countryside Alliance (CA) reacted angrily to the RSPB’s publication last week of its latest Birdcrime 2009 report. The NGO described the charity’s relentless focus on raptor persecution as a “phoney war”. The RSPB has claimed that 2009 was the second-worst year in the past decade for raptor persecution.

Accompanied by a press release provocatively and sensationally headlined 20 years of shame as war continues against birds of prey, the latest figures in the RSPB’s Birdcrime 2009 report lead the charity to state that: “The conflict with land managed for the shooting of gamebirds remains the main problem for birds of prey, particularly the upland grouse shooting estates in northern England and Scotland.”

The report called for the introduction of a vicarious liability offense to make managers and employers responsible for the actions of their gamekeepers. The charity also called for modernization of the regulations governing gameshooting, stating: “This could include removing the rights to shoot of an individual convicted of bird of prey persecution, or removing the right for shooting to take place over an estate if an employee is convicted, for a fixed period.

“These options would provide a significant deterrent without imposing a burden on the law abiding majority.” The RSPB wants an improvement in the reporting of wildlife crime and called on the Government to make the killing of birds of prey a recorded crime.

The NGO described the charity’s relentless focus on raptor persecution as a “phoney war”.


A spokesman for the NGO told Shooting Times: “There can be little excuse for breaking the law, but it is important to debunk the myth that there is a war being waged on birds of prey by rural stakeholders such as gamekeepers. The facts show this is simply not so, and the public should be sceptical about the motives of those who hype the issue when a host of other, less photogenic birds are in serious decline.” He added: “The most authoritative source of statistics on wildlife crime is the police National Wildlife Crime Unit (NWCU). This records much lower figures than the RSPB. Within the context of wildlife crime in general, the incidence of bird of prey persecution is tiny. By contrast, poaching is by far the most frequent form of wildlife crime, according to the NWCU. While the NGO is committed to eliminating wildlife crime — including the persecution of birds of prey — in an age of austerity, resources must surely be matched to the most prevalent forms of wildlife crime.”

The Countryside Alliance’s moorland policy officer Adrian Blackmore highlighted the fact that the RSPB’s annual report now focuses solely on raptors. He told Shooting Times: “It had been hoped that the RSPB’s Birdcrime report for 2009 would be based on firm facts, and not the supposition and misleading propaganda of previous years. If so, then it would be a worthwhile and meaningful document, enabling vital resources to be targeted where they are most needed to prevent acts of illegal persecution. Sadly, this has once again proved not to be the case, especially given the RSPB’s inexplicable decision in 2009 to cease recording certain categories of incidents, such as the shooting and destruction of non bird of prey species. This is despite the fact that there were 682 such incidents reported in 2008; an increase of 480 per cent over the previous five years. As a result, the RSPB has acknowledged that the figures supplied in this year’s report fail to give a total figure for bird crime in the UK; a failure that results in a report the title of which is not only now a complete misnomer, but one that also lacks any reasonable balance.”

I do not agree with any illegal activities and we have to find a balance with nature. I love all wildlife.

Hi Tom

Both the Government and the RSPB should place a very high priority in dealing with the crime of shooting, trapping and poisoning and incidents of persecution of birds of prey. If more perpetrators were caught and convicted and given tough prison sentences coupled with high fines then and only then might the incidences of this abhorrent persecution start to decline.

I know what I would like to do to these perpetrators but it isn't printable here. If I ever witness an incident of persecution involving a bird of prey I would report it to the police immediately.

yes i have herd of them what your point here i just pointing out what other peoples findings are. I don't agree with the killing of birds of pray or any other protected bird either. What I am asking is why the rspb reporting higher crime levels then the wildlife polices own findings surly they would inform the police of theses crimes as they are the only ones that can carry out a proper investigation. Why only now record numbers of birds of pray crime are the other birds not as important or is it that birds of pray really do make more members. From what I have read gamekeepers seem to do a good job with regards to wildlife. I must say I agree with sooty. I will say there are some birds of pray that have very large numbers and have increased to numbers higher then ever recorded such as our common buzzard which are bigger problem to keepers along with the sparrow hawk which out number kestrels I would hate to see these bird harmed but there is a unnatural balance in Norfolk and probably else where its a shame they cannot be relocated to a low population area this would help the farmers and keepers a like. I agree with who said talk is good and I know the rspb do talk with basc ngo and the ca but this is the bit I dont get they release a report to the shooting world saying what a good job they doing and then go tell the bird world that keeper are gun welding poisoning people of the world yet they have more hen harriers on there land breeding then on the rspb own reserves. I know there are bad keepers out there which need to be stopped but how can people know who to believe when figures dont add up and every one is trying to score points for there cause.

Don't know if you have ever heard of a bloke called Charles Fort, Redtail, but I strongly suggest you google "Charles Fort Damned Data".

He commented way back at the start of 1900's that various groups take results from scientific reports, shoe horn those that fit what they are trying to prove at the exclusion to those that don't. Exactly what you are saying. ;o)

Go on google it ...

Ant

This is what I am saying people take reports and shoe horn them but the rspb do it as well as other groups in the shooting world hence why there no trust. Take a look at the rspb report the numbers dont add up as it say there more bop crime committed in 09 then in the 20 years but the 09 crimes r included in the 20 years, if you look at the police crime records they have less then the rspb which as i said earlier surely they would report every crime to them to be investigated I know of some reported crimes not to be true but still to be reported by rspb as a crime but when investigated by police it was found to be natural predation but never heard of the rspb with drawing the report from there records take a look at the sandringham cases. I also no pigeon keeper persecute birds of pray but never hire them being accused of it.