I recently saw an entry for a local area (Woolston Eyes) in the Sightings pages of Bird Watching magazine that read "There was an influx of Reed Buntings (15 ringed) and Great Tits (8 ringed)" . When I asked the question "why are these birds being ringed?" the reply I got was that this particular site is a BTO Constant Effort Site and here's the justification I was given for this activity:"The Scheme provides valuable trend information on abundance of adults and juveniles, productivity and also adult survival rates for 25 species of common songbird."What a load of utter whitewash. There is no way you could get that information for those particular species from ringing. I'm sorry but this is just a pseudo-scientific smokescreen. The ringers are only too glad to be given a reason to do more ringing because they enjoy it, and the BTO are eager to shore up their own existence with yet more studies and more data. What I'd like to see is a much more measured use of this privilege rather than the 'let's trap it because we can' approach. You see I'm a simple guy with a simple outlook. You watch wildlife - you enjoy wildlife - but the only time you trap and handle any wild animal is when it's absolutely essential. And this isn't.Ringing needs more regulation from outside the BTO. And I'm not just referring to the ringers licensing scheme. I would have expected the RSPB, the royal society for the Protection of birds, to be voicing their disapproval. Being caught in a net, handled and then ringed is a pretty traumatic experience, and when performed inappropriately, amounts to cruelty in my opinion.
Hi,
your final point about long term changes is well made and one I subscribe to- for instance Starlings only began to breed in England in the late 19th early 20th century, many starling species are nomadic and irruptive as species so their populations come and go.
S
For advice about Birding, Identification,field guides, binoculars, scopes, tripods, etc - put 'Birding Tips' into the search box
Personally I don't have an educated opinion on this subject as I'm not experienced enough on the subject.
Having read some of the very passionate posts within this thread as well as the PDF leaflet attached to the IanH post above, this does appear to be rather an emotive subject on both sides of the argument.
I know the RSPB leaflet on ringing states that the RSPB supports the ringing of wild birds but I'd like to ask if the RSPB actually means all wild birds or does mean it supports is limited to rare species.
Also does "support" basically mean giving guidance on how it should be done when carried out or do the RSPB openly encourage it to be carried out whenever possible on as many birds as possible.
It would also be interesting to find out from the BTO what percentage of birds ringed are reported as birds found and/or reported when found dead by members of the public.
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Hello victor meldrew
It isn't your views as such that have made me uncomfortable, you are entitled to them. It's the language you used in your first post. "What a load of utter whitewash" and "pseudo-scientific smokescreen" are two examples. Strong and negative language you have to admit. Words like this are bound to provoke a reaction from people who think differently.
The other comments you may have provoked are due to suspicion that your post was not a genuine one. We have had examples of people trying to disrupt this forum and we do not want to see this happening again on such a fabulous forum. If you are reading the other posts you will see that we have a new member at the moment who is posting inaccurate, derogatory and inflammatory comments that are being deleted by the mods.
No-one wishes to be rude or dismissive of your views but it may be a good idea to settle in first and get to know people a bit before posting very strong views about something that you must guess is being done by members of this forum.
Anyway, if you still decide this forum is not for you, I wish you well for the future
Regards
Pipit
Unknown said: Hi Buzzard just to reply to a couple of your points V M has actually posted a wildlife friendly comment before,think we should encourage people on here even if they have different views even as far as I am concerned it is a first post,my guess is he did not think it would create a hoo haa and will probably not contribute again Thankyou for your support Sooty. You're a gentleman. But you're probably right - maybe these forums are not for me. There seem to be a few contributors who are unable to tolerate an alternative opinion (even one that has the individual birds' best interests at heart !) without resorting to a personal attack. Some people appear to be surprised, disgusted even, that I have dared to challenge the BTO. Having my views described as "controversial" certainly surprises me. I would just encourage everyone not to blindly accept all you're told or you read (however scientifically based it may seem) without challenging it if necessary and then making up your own mind. I'm sure the BTO or even the RSPB would not want to be thought of as dogmatic. I'm not saying that the BTO or the ringing groups are villains, just over-zealous maybe. I think we sometimes need to take a step back and be prepared to acknowledge that nature often works in cycles, most of which are longer than the periods covered in studies - probably longer in fact than most human lifespans. Populations of birds naturally go through highs and lows, change their geographic distribution, exploit new niches and react (or not) to selective forces like every other organism does. In the short-term there may appear to be cause for concern but it's not necessarily all doom and gloom and it doesn't necessarily warrant immediate studies or intervention. [/quote] Hi VM, may I apologise for what you felt as a personal attack. As mentioned I certainly didn't mean to imply anything personal and didn't mean to cause any malice. The mods have quite rightly removed my remark and have spoken to me personally. You have made some interesting remarks agains't members not been able to tolerate your opinion and disgusted that you have challenged the BTO. I'm sure that we can tolerate your opinion as anyone else's. The thread was started by yourself claiming there was to much bird ringing. Members and the RSPB have voiced their opinions, are you now implying the forum isn't for you. Why? What did you want from this debate, why start a thread then feel oppressed because of others comments. I have challenged your theory several times based on what you have read in one article, yet you state for others not to blindly accept what they hear or read. Your original post was in relation to birds ringed on a CES site, how many papers, studies, journals and other collated data have you read! The CES scheme provides valuable trend information on abundance of adults and juveniles, productivity and also adult survival rates for 25 species of common songbird. http://www.bto.org/ringing/ringinfo/ces/index.htm Is one bird ringed to many? Is this what you are implying. With regards to population high and lows in the short term and no cause for concern, I would beg to differ. I suggest you do some homework and look at recent studies: here is one to get you started. Ten million fewer House Sparrows in the UK than there were twenty-five years ago! http://www.bto.org/appeals/house_sparrow.htm#factsfigures If you own any Bird guides then I'm sure you are well aware that some of the information compiled in them was only made available through the dedicated studies of ornithologists who participated in bird ringing. How else we we know the; length, wingspan and weight, the longevity and productivity, movements and the status of such species. I have the respect for you and for your beliefs as I do anyone. I have also stated I don't want anyone to conform to my opinion's, as if they would anyway! I talked about getting things into Perspective in relation to the numbers. "Far to much bird ringing" 800-900 thousands birds ringed in the UK & NI. by Licenced fully trained Ringers of which the vast majority are volunteers. I could have used a host of examples, How many cars pollute the world how many birds are illegally trapped or how much money are footballers paid. I used the following as an example, which has nothing to do with VM. 55 MILLION Birds Killed Annually in the UK by Pet Cats ( Not Including Feral ) 60 MILLION Birds Killed Annually in One USA State ( Not Including Feral ) 1000 Tonnes of dog feces daily on the streets of the UK. Not one person has commented in relation to the figures, "HELLO" we 're talking MILLIONS & MILLIONS of birds and THOUSANDS & THOUSANDS of TONNES of Feces. Buzzard Nature Is Amazing - Let Us Keep It That Way
Hi Buzzard just to reply to a couple of your points V M has actually posted a wildlife friendly comment before,think we should encourage people on here even if they have different views even as far as I am concerned it is a first post,my guess is he did not think it would create a hoo haa and will probably not contribute again
Thankyou for your support Sooty. You're a gentleman. But you're probably right - maybe these forums are not for me. There seem to be a few contributors who are unable to tolerate an alternative opinion (even one that has the individual birds' best interests at heart !) without resorting to a personal attack.
Some people appear to be surprised, disgusted even, that I have dared to challenge the BTO. Having my views described as "controversial" certainly surprises me. I would just encourage everyone not to blindly accept all you're told or you read (however scientifically based it may seem) without challenging it if necessary and then making up your own mind. I'm sure the BTO or even the RSPB would not want to be thought of as dogmatic.
I'm not saying that the BTO or the ringing groups are villains, just over-zealous maybe. I think we sometimes need to take a step back and be prepared to acknowledge that nature often works in cycles, most of which are longer than the periods covered in studies - probably longer in fact than most human lifespans. Populations of birds naturally go through highs and lows, change their geographic distribution, exploit new niches and react (or not) to selective forces like every other organism does. In the short-term there may appear to be cause for concern but it's not necessarily all doom and gloom and it doesn't necessarily warrant immediate studies or intervention.
[/quote]
Hi VM,
may I apologise for what you felt as a personal attack. As mentioned I certainly didn't mean to imply anything personal and didn't mean to cause any malice. The mods have quite rightly removed my remark and have spoken to me personally.
You have made some interesting remarks agains't members not been able to tolerate your opinion and disgusted that you have challenged the BTO.
I'm sure that we can tolerate your opinion as anyone else's.
The thread was started by yourself claiming there was to much bird ringing. Members and the RSPB have voiced their opinions, are you now implying the forum isn't for you.
Why?
What did you want from this debate, why start a thread then feel oppressed because of others comments.
I have challenged your theory several times based on what you have read in one article, yet you state for others not to blindly accept what they hear or read.
Your original post was in relation to birds ringed on a CES site, how many papers, studies, journals and other collated data have you read!
The CES scheme provides valuable trend information on abundance of adults and juveniles, productivity and also adult survival rates for 25 species of common songbird.
http://www.bto.org/ringing/ringinfo/ces/index.htm
Is one bird ringed to many? Is this what you are implying.
With regards to population high and lows in the short term and no cause for concern, I would beg to differ.
I suggest you do some homework and look at recent studies: here is one to get you started.
Ten million fewer House Sparrows in the UK than there were twenty-five years ago!
http://www.bto.org/appeals/house_sparrow.htm#factsfigures
If you own any Bird guides then I'm sure you are well aware that some of the information compiled in them was only made available through the dedicated studies of ornithologists who participated in bird ringing. How else we we know the; length, wingspan and weight, the longevity and productivity, movements and the status of such species.
I have the respect for you and for your beliefs as I do anyone.
I have also stated I don't want anyone to conform to my opinion's, as if they would anyway!
I talked about getting things into Perspective in relation to the numbers.
"Far to much bird ringing"
800-900 thousands birds ringed in the UK & NI. by Licenced fully trained Ringers of which the vast majority are volunteers.
I could have used a host of examples, How many cars pollute the world how many birds are illegally trapped or how much money are footballers paid.
I used the following as an example, which has nothing to do with VM.
55 MILLION Birds Killed Annually in the UK by Pet Cats ( Not Including Feral )
60 MILLION Birds Killed Annually in One USA State ( Not Including Feral )
1000 Tonnes of dog feces daily on the streets of the UK.
Not one person has commented in relation to the figures, "HELLO" we 're talking MILLIONS & MILLIONS of birds and THOUSANDS & THOUSANDS of TONNES of Feces.
Buzzard
Nature Is Amazing - Let Us Keep It That Way
rhodopsin said: Personally I don't have an educated opinion on this subject as I'm not experienced enough on the subject. Having read some of the very passionate posts within this thread as well as the PDF leaflet attached to the IanH post above, this does appear to be rather an emotive subject on both sides of the argument. I know the RSPB leaflet on ringing states that the RSPB supports the ringing of wild birds but I'd like to ask if the RSPB actually means all wild birds or does mean it supports is limited to rare species. Also does "support" basically mean giving guidance on how it should be done when carried out or do the RSPB openly encourage it to be carried out whenever possible on as many birds as possible. It would also be interesting to find out from the BTO what percentage of birds ringed are reported as birds found and/or reported when found dead by members of the public.
The leaflet IanH attached to his post earlier states that "The RSPB supports ringing of wild birds when it is done in accordance with the Scientific Strategy of the Ringing Scheme of the BTO or its sister organisations overseas." In other words, there needs to be a reason for the ringing, and it should only be done by competent qualified ringers. The RSPB does not give any kind of guidance on how it should be done or when it should be done - the BTO are the experts on this.
Ringing of wild birds is a valuable conservation tool. It is only by being able to identify birds as individuals that we can find out for instance how long they live and where they migrate to. We know that house sparrows are very sedentary birds and most of them spend all their lives within two miles of where they were hatched. This is an invaluable piece of knowledge that is crucial when setting out the advice and measures on house sparrow conservation and population recovery.
Survival rates is another important type of information that can only be obtained by ringing. If a bird population starts to decline, and the ringing returns show that the juvenile survival has gone down dramatically, we can start to look for clues to the population decline in the breeding grounds or what may be happening to the birds during the autumn months, and find the remedies to reverse the decline. On the other hand, there would be no point wasting time and money to look at the breeding habitat of the sedge warbler, because ringing returns tell us that their population declines are driven by winter mortality caused by the conditions in their wintering grounds in Africa.
We all know that blackcaps are spending the winter in the UK in increasing numbers, and without knowing better, we would perhaps all think that our breeding birds have decided to stay for the winter. How wrong would we be in that assumption. Only because of ringing do we know that our blackcaps continue to migrate south every autumn, and the birds we see here in the wintertime are continental birds, who are the ones that have changed their behaviour. Clearly, the potential conservation implications are different in the two scenarios, and as such this is important to know.
KatTai has already mentioned on this thread what percentage of ringed birds are subsequently found and reported. In order for the 1-2% to give a meaningful sample size a large number of birds need to be ringed in the first place. Also, birds need to be ringed every year, or we are not going to get the answers to changes in survival rates for example. The value of a monitoring programme that is in place before something happens to the bird populations is immeasurable. Bird populations face lots of dangers from human activities, habitat loss, climate change etc etc, and these can start to impact a bird species at any time, in any one of a variety of ways. if we do not know what eg the survival rates of a healthy population are, how can we make a meaningful assessment of what may be causing the declines?
Yes, of course being caught, measured and ringed is a traumatic experience for the bird in question. What we need to keep in perspective is how traumatic is it in comparison with other things that the same bird is likely to come across in its daily life. Of course, we cannot talk to the bird and get an answer from the 'horses mouth', but all evidence points to the fact that ringing does not cause any lasting trauma to the bird. If it did, and if the wearing of the ring altered the bird's behaviour or its chance of survival, there would not be any point to do any ringing at all, because it would not answer the questions that are asked of it. Bird ringing in Europe has been carried out for over a hundred years. If the process invalidated the results, it would have been abandoned a long time ago.
We all have to form our own opinions on the for or against bird ringing, but I for one am satisfied that bird ringing has a minimal impact on the birds involved, and that when properly done as a part of a BTO monitoring scheme, the knowledge we can gain is of such huge value that it is worthwhile. After all, the ultimate benefactors of all this activity are the birds themselves through the conservation measures we are able to put into place only because of the knowledge ringing has given us.
HI
Glad to see the offending remarks have been removed and appologies said
the debate is back on track.
I joined the forum to make friends.
THE PEN IS MIGHTIER THAN THE SWORD
BUT OCCASIONALLY A NIB BREAKS AND HAS TO BE RELACED
RAY
a good laugh is better than a tonic
Trochilus said: KatTai has already mentioned on this thread what percentage of ringed birds are subsequently found and reported. In order for the 1-2% to give a meaningful sample size a large number of birds need to be ringed in the first place. asked of it. Bird ring in Europe has been carried out for over a hundred years. If the process invalidated the results, it would have been abandoned a long time ago.
KatTai has already mentioned on this thread what percentage of ringed birds are subsequently found and reported. In order for the 1-2% to give a meaningful sample size a large number of birds need to be ringed in the first place. asked of it. Bird ring in Europe has been carried out for over a hundred years. If the process invalidated the results, it would have been abandoned a long time ago.
The only other person who has given accurrate and precise information relating to the ringing of birds is me.
I have supplied information relating to the totals also including the amount of ringers and birds ringed of which 20% is pullus ringed in the nest which are even less stressed or traumatised.
Thanks Barnsley-Lad, I have no problem making an apology if someone is aggrieved by what I have said.
Buzzard, I didn't mean to ignore your contribution to the debate - you have provided a lot of good solid stats about ringing - I simply remembered that KatTai had mentioned the percentage of ringed birds that are recovered.
Thanks Trochilus for the concise reply which clearly outlines the RSPB's position on this subject.
As a Member of the RSPB I fully support this position and hope that other Members are similarly like minded.
Personally I feel this emotive position taken by those against the ringing of birds should be directed at the BTO who carry the ringing of birds and not the RSPB.
However, if it is felt that the RSPB should reconsider its position on the ringing of birds, then they should be presented with the necessary facts and figures as well hard evidence issued in a well structured and formulated document giving facts as opposed to emotional thoughts.
Richard
HI BUZZARD
WE HAVE A SAYING
IT TAKES A MAN TO APOLOGISE. IN MY EYES THAT'S WHAT YOU ARE