Far too much bird ringing

There's never a Jedi Knight when you need one.....  I'll have a go though. (I'm not a ringer by the way).

No matter how expert the ringer, ringing is undoubtably a stressful experience for a bird, but they get over it. If they didn't, ringing would be a totally pointless (and harmful) research tool which any civilised Government would prohibit.

Ringing won't answer all the questions on population dynamics, migration, mortality etc, but it fills in a lot of the gaps. It has to be done in big volumes otherwise the rate of return for research purposes would be way too small to be meaningful. Like trying to discover how many people visit UK Country Parks by ringing-up only 50 householders.

So, for me, ringing is a justifiable means to an end and it has to be done with some determination for the results to be worth anything. I'm sceptical that people get into it just for the pleasure of having a warm feathery thing in their hand. Fulmars can do terrible things to the unwary and even a hacked-off Hawfinch can do some major damage to a finger......

JBNTS

michael s said:

Sorry to go against the flow but cannot see why most people seem to be so upset.I will set out a few facts as I see them 1)his choice of name means absolutely nothing 2)he is a wildlife lover 3)do not think he intended to cause a disturbance but just like myself had a different view and quite honestly I Would have thought for and against would be 50/50 which just shows unless posting you can never know4)read the original thread and it says far too much bird ringing and nowhere Think he does not say that we have not gained information that has helped us all.

Think his main point is along the lines that I think,having worked with farm animals all my life I can assure anyone that when you do something with them that is out of the daily routine they are immediately traumatised and no person will convince me that netting a wild bird and it hanging there for a while,its feathers being disturbed,handled by human beings that was never intended the bird cannot be anything but traumatised.

Sorry if this upsets people but point out once again not against ringing just think far too much and if people traumatised by V M thread then I bet it is nothing compared to a netted bird. 

A list from a recent site goes like this128 Blackcap,49 Chiffchaff,2 Garden Warblers,2 Willow Warblers,5 Whitethroat,3 Sedge Warblers,3 Redstart,3 Tre Pipit,21 Meadow Pipit,21 Whinchat and this goes on day after day on loads of sites,seems too much to me

Agree choice of name means nothing

He is a Wildlife lover. Do you personally know them?

Totally agree everyone has an opinion.

Read the original post and posted a comment.

I don't think people are upset, they like you and me voiced there opininon and thoughts. I myself only touching on the subject.

Traumatised by a thread, I don't think it will have a long-term psychological effect and I don't think its upsetting.

A member has posted a thread stating there is far to much bird ringing. 

Is this based on an assumption, data and studies that they have collated, a bias opposed to ringing etc?

There is still no Reference made to the statistics and number of birds annually ringed in the UK & Northern Ireland and the number of dedicated experienced fully regulated licenced ringers.

No mention of the % of pullus against adults ringed.

Only one method mentioned about gathering and collecting data, been caught in a net!

There is approximately 2500 licensed regulated ringers in the UK & NI that ring annually 800 - 900 thousand birds. 20% of all birds ringed are pulli and only 1 out of 50 birds are retrapped. There is also numerous methods used to collate and gather data.

Now if you want to put things into perspective and look at other stats agains't some other topical issues be my guest.

Top Ten Coutries with the most Pet Cats ( Not Including Feral )

1:- USA  76,430,000

2:- China 53,100,000

7:- UK 7,700,000

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-with-most-pet-cat-population.html

It is etimated that in one USA state alone 60 million birds are killed annually THAT'S 60 MILLION IN ONE STATE.

The UK estimate is that cats catch up to 275 million prey items a year, of which 55 million are birds. THAT'S 55 MILLION BIRDS.

http://www.nspca.co.za/page.aspx?Id=99&CateId=20&Category=Wildlife&SubCateId=99&SubCategory=Cats%20&%20Birds

Top Ten Coutries with the most Pet Dogs ( Not Including Feral )

1:- USA  61,080,000

2:- Brazil 30,051,000

3:- China 22,908,000

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-with-most-pet-dog-population.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

The UK isn't one of the top ten countries but it is estimated that the millions of dogs that are in the UK produce 1,000 tonnes of feces every day. THAT'S 1,000 TONNES EVERY DAY.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A11998461

The point been LETS GET THINGS INTO PERSPECTIVE.

You can have an opinion wether you agree or not is entirely down to the individual.

Buzzard

Hi Buzzard just to reply to a couple of your points V M has actually posted a wildlife friendly comment before,think we should encourage people on here even if they have different views even as far as I am concerned it is a first post,my guess is he did not think it would create a hoo haa and will probably not contribute again and I do not suggest that is your idea but it has happened on the forums to be nasty and so that person will not contribute again presumably because they want everyone to conform,am sure you are not in that category so please do not think I am suggesting that.

Had to smile about cats and dogs as I perfectly agree with you and have put comments to that effect but cannot see how V M are connected to cats and dogs.Personally think people have been unfair on him for having a opinion that while different is not harmful in my opinion to wildlife. 

John, Thanks for getting the discussion back on track - also KaiTai and Buzzard. As a Iayperson, I have found this discussion very informative. I expect there will always be a division between laissez faire and intervention. Claire

I was reading through and planning what to say and then got to John B's post and found he'd said everything I was going to say :)

Devil's advocate jedi here,

quote-

"" When I go out into the countryside I want to connect with wild creatures that allow me a temporary escape from my superficial human world. For me a ringed bird is no longer truly wild. It has been branded as 'property of the human race'. When I see such a bird I feel resentful. My cleansing experience has been spoiled.""

So does seeing a bird at a human made  metal feeder ( a totally unnatural device and source of food) also offend sensibilities?  Is the observation spoiled because we are intervening ? 

 In some US states winter feeding is the only thing that keeps birds alive. Are the people doing the feeding keeping the weaker birds that failed to migrate alive- thereby weakening the gene pool, or are the birds just taking advantage of a new food supply?

I have watched bird ringing for over 30 years and have never seen a bird harmed. The training is tough

 :)

S

aiki said:

I was reading through and planning what to say and then got to John B's post and found he'd said everything I was going to say :)

I has me uses.....

I bet you'd have said it more eloquently though.

Interesting thread and quite a heated debate over the weekend. The moderators will be removing anything from this thread which we feel breaches terms and conditions but we will be leaving it open for discussion.

As a gentle reminder to all, this is an open forum where new members are just as welcome to their opinion as battle hardened veterans!  Please remember to be kind and courteous to all other users and if you have any concerns about a particular post, please use the report function.

Please read our attached ringing leaflet for more information about our stance on bird ringing.

michael s said:

Hi Buzzard just to reply to a couple of your points V M has actually posted a wildlife friendly comment before,think we should encourage people on here even if they have different views even as far as I am concerned it is a first post,my guess is he did not think it would create a hoo haa and will probably not contribute again

Thankyou for your support Sooty. You're a gentleman. But you're probably right - maybe these forums are not for me. There seem to be a few contributors who are unable to tolerate an alternative opinion (even one that has the individual birds' best interests at heart !) without resorting to a personal attack.

Some people appear to be surprised, disgusted even, that I have dared to challenge the BTO. Having my views described as "controversial" certainly surprises me. I would just encourage everyone not to blindly accept all you're told or you read (however scientifically based it may seem) without challenging it if necessary and then making up your own mind. I'm sure the BTO or even the RSPB would not want to be thought of as dogmatic.

I'm not saying that the BTO or the ringing groups are villains, just over-zealous maybe. I think we sometimes need to take a step back and be prepared to acknowledge that nature often works in cycles, most of which are longer than the periods covered in studies - probably longer in fact than most human lifespans. Populations of birds naturally go through highs and lows, change their geographic distribution, exploit new niches and react (or not) to selective forces like every other organism does. In the short-term there may appear to be cause for concern but it's not necessarily all doom and gloom and it doesn't necessarily warrant immediate studies or intervention.