Marsh or Willow Tit ??

Hi

the Marsh tit shows a pale mark at the base of the upper mandible, Willow can show one on the cutting edge of the lower mandible - normally only visible when the bill is open.

S

Hi Puffin.

In some instances it is never easy to make an identification from a photo, this particular photo I personally believe is one of the most difficult to determine the exact species. I have read with interest everyones comments and identification methods applied.

http://blx1.bto.org/atlases/WT-atlas.html

The above link is for the BTO bird atlas where the Willow Tit was recorded during the first and second breeding atlases, the winter atlas and the change in distribution between the two breeding atlases.

It cleary shows areas of the country were this species hasn't been recorded, my reason for asking about habitat and location of this particular shot.

I originally thought Willow Tit, because of the wing panel, no white on lower mandible more buffish than white cheeks, does it have a bullish neck etc etc.  but then I looked again and thought it looks like a Marsh Tit  i.e. stance, white cheeks and neat bib?

Also the theories relating to numbers. In some parts of the country the Willow Tit is quite rare and in other parts non existence.

This got me thinking about particular sites were I ring, so I checked what had been ringed at one of the sites I have studied and found that 122 Marsh Tits against 48 Willow Tits had been ringed, a ratio of virtually only 3 to 1. I also checked my own personal records and found I have ringed more Willow than Marsh.

So I 'm still a bit unsure about this bird as it has some characteristics of both.

I have read my Svensson, Identification to European Passerines and also appendix 4 of the ringing bible to try and see if I have missed something.

I have also found some of the papers and literature and photo's that I have used to help with seperating these species.

In the field, one of the best identification features is the cheek. This is very obvious at good range, and is less obvious in the hand.

Marsh Tits have a smaller white area on the cheek, and a pattern on the ear where it changes sharply from white to grey/brown. Willow has no sharp change, and the cheek is white over a bigger area, behind the ear. It makes Marsh appear to have a smaller white face, and Willow a big white face.

More recently  within the last two years a study has been carried out using a bill criterion and is mentioned in Svensson's Identification of European Passerines as a small comment quoting De Wolf (1987) and is working at 98% accuracy (on hundreds of birds).

http://blx1.bto.org/pdf/ringmigration/24_2/broughton1.pdf

The above link is for the paper that was published in 2008 relating to the original trails and it includes two excellent photos using the bill criteria.

Finally the following link is to the worcester birding group article on seperating Willows and Marsh Tits, an excellent publication and I'm sure all will enjoy reading it.

http://www.worcesterbirding.co.uk/49.html

They have actually incorrectly labelled a photo, any guesses to which one.

Regards Buzzard

Hi Buzzard

Thank you for your informative reply.  Now the differences between the Willow Tit, and the Marsh Tit are apparent, easy to see and observe even with the naked eye (if we are lucky to see one really close up of course)

With the last link you have provided us with the last two pictures are the wrong way around - mislabelled

Regards

Kathy and Dave

Buzzard said:

Hi Puffin.

In some instances it is never easy to make an identification from a photo, this particular photo I personally believe is one of the most difficult to determine the exact species. I have read with interest everyones comments and identification methods applied.

http://blx1.bto.org/atlases/WT-atlas.html

The above link is for the BTO bird atlas where the Willow Tit was recorded during the first and second breeding atlases, the winter atlas and the change in distribution between the two breeding atlases.

It cleary shows areas of the country were this species hasn't been recorded, my reason for asking about habitat and location of this particular shot.

I originally thought Willow Tit, because of the wing panel, no white on lower mandible more buffish than white cheeks, does it have a bullish neck etc etc.  but then I looked again and thought it looks like a Marsh Tit  i.e. stance, white cheeks and neat bib?

Also the theories relating to numbers. In some parts of the country the Willow Tit is quite rare and in other parts non existence.

This got me thinking about particular sites were I ring, so I checked what had been ringed at one of the sites I have studied and found that 122 Marsh Tits against 48 Willow Tits had been ringed, a ratio of virtually only 3 to 1. I also checked my own personal records and found I have ringed more Willow than Marsh.

So I 'm still a bit unsure about this bird as it has some characteristics of both.

I have read my Svensson, Identification to European Passerines and also appendix 4 of the ringing bible to try and see if I have missed something.

I have also found some of the papers and literature and photo's that I have used to help with seperating these species.

In the field, one of the best identification features is the cheek. This is very obvious at good range, and is less obvious in the hand.

Marsh Tits have a smaller white area on the cheek, and a pattern on the ear where it changes sharply from white to grey/brown. Willow has no sharp change, and the cheek is white over a bigger area, behind the ear. It makes Marsh appear to have a smaller white face, and Willow a big white face.

More recently  within the last two years a study has been carried out using a bill criterion and is mentioned in Svensson's Identification of European Passerines as a small comment quoting De Wolf (1987) and is working at 98% accuracy (on hundreds of birds).

http://blx1.bto.org/pdf/ringmigration/24_2/broughton1.pdf

The above link is for the paper that was published in 2008 relating to the original trails and it includes two excellent photos using the bill criteria.

Finally the following link is to the worcester birding group article on seperating Willows and Marsh Tits, an excellent publication and I'm sure all will enjoy reading it.

http://www.worcesterbirding.co.uk/49.html

They have actually incorrectly labelled a photo, any guesses to which one.

Regards Buzzard

Unknown said:

numbers alone tell me that i'd put my money on it being a marsh tit.

Out of my own personal interest and the fact this particular photo shows this bird as having some characteristics of both species.

Without been pedantic, I would like to know what  methods would LlyodScott & Mrs T use to identify this photo as the other members have attempted to do!

I'm very curious If Mrs T would agree with LloydScott if this photo had been taken in Europe in 2000.

As the estimated European population for Marsh Tit in 2000 Summer: 2.9 to 5.4 million pairs.

And the estimated European population for Willow Tit in 2000 Summer: 4 to 7 million pairs.

The Willow Tit out numbering the Marsh Tit by 1.6 million?

Would we be more inclined to think Willow!

Regards Buzzard