Willow or Marsh Tit??

Unknown said:

Give it a squeeze and see what it sounds like!!!

Only joking really but the call is really the only was to separate them with confidence.  It is very difficult to describe the calls but marsh tits go 'chay, chay, chay'  and willow tit has a short 3-note buzz.  I would go for a marsh tit as it seems to lack the obvious pale wing panel and has a pale base to the bill. Do you have any other images of different angles?

Willow tits are getting very scarce these days and in Norfolk and sightings now need to be submitted with a description!

Paul

Hi,

you sure about that call description?  Mardh tits here in Norfolk go  'Pit-choo'  and Willows have a nasal 'Chay chay chay'..

:))

S

Seymouraves you are quite correct, Paul E has got them the wrong way around.

These two species do cause so much confusion, and it is not easy to seperate them.

Without been pedantic and fully understanding everyones contributions to this thread.

I personally feel that you can't make an identification based on numbers and if one bird visits a feeder more than another!

If I'm training or passing on my knowledge with someone or leading and participating in guided walks then I would use the criteria set out below, If the call or song was unheard or abscent.

                                                                                            Criteria
            
                                                  Marsh Tit                                                              Willow Tit
                                 
 
Wing Length                              N/A                                                                           N/A
                  
Tail Difference                          N/A                                                                            N/A
 
Secondaries    Outer webs uniform with mantle                      Inner SS and tertials edged whitish

Bill                       White margin lower cutting edge                                   No white margin
 
Cap                           Extends far less down nape                            Extends further down nape
 
Bib                              Clear cut and less extensive                    Less clear cut and more extensive
 
Cheeks                                     White                                                                Buff, off white

Flanks                      Uniform with rest of upper parts               Richer buff than rest of upper parts
 
Crown                               Glossy Black                                                  Black with brown fringes
 
Mantle                              Warn greyish brown                                       Greyish with white fringe
 

I would like to know what the community members would think If these photo's had been taken in Europe in 2000.

As the estimated European population for Marsh Tit in 2000 Summer: 2.9 to 5.4 million pairs.

And the estimated European population for Willow Tit in 2000 Summer: 4 to 7 million pairs.

The Willow Tit out numbering the Marsh Tit by 1.6 million?

Would we all be more inclined to think Willow!

The point I'm making is you cannot base an identification based on numbers alone.

Seymouraves has also made a lot of valuable comments and this quote is especially true.

"Playing the numbers is a good starting point but birds like to shatter our pre-conceived ideas" :)

Regards Buzzard

Hi,

I'll take issue with ya on a couple of points :)

I normally rely on-

Marsh tit has a pale area at the base of the upper mandible

Willow tit has a pale edge to the lower mandible cutting edge

:)

If you see enough Marsh tits regularly  the Willow tit  'bull-neck' really jumps out :)

S

seymouraves said:

Hi,

I'll take issue with ya on a couple of points :)

I normally rely on-

Marsh tit has a pale area at the base of the upper mandible

Willow tit has a pale edge to the lower mandible cutting edge

:)

If you see enough Marsh tits regularly  the Willow tit  'bull-neck' really jumps out :)

S

Totally valid points, which again you are following a criterion.

The above method of using the cheek was widely used in the field if no call was heard, on this particular set of photo's you can clearly see the difference between the white cheek of the Willow and the buffish white of the Marsh.

Again it is a difficult method to use, especially as niether species stay still for long.

Regards Buzzard

Willow tit, note the matt black head. Marsh has glossy head.

Well now you all have your eye in, which one is this? Not very good pics, as you say they move so fast. Taken in North Devon, rural area with farmland surrounding.

Hi Bramble, I'd say Marsh tit, I'd wait to see what the experts say though, I could be totally wrong

Hi Bramble

I would say a Marsh Tit going by the Glossy tidy effect of the Black Cap on its head

Regards

Kathy and Dave

Hi,

this looks a straight forward Marsh tit-  note there is no pale panel on the secondaries :))

S

Thank you.  I did think is was likely to be a Marsh tit.  I just wanted to make sure.

Sarah