Are these the same fat balls? Also should I clean my garden path grate.

Re fat balls, almost certainly not the same. For example, palm oil would be referred to on the cheap alternative if it isn't contained.....so it is. I can't see a calorie count on the cheaper option either. It could be the mark up is excessive, but could also just mean the 'bulk up' is excessive for the cheaper option, even if 'crude' figures overlap.

Thank you to both.

I realise quality is very important with bird food. However the price difference is enormous with some of the wilko products. Their kibbled peanuts are £20 for12.5kg. CJ Wildlife is £29.99 for10kg. Pellets £19 for 12.5kg. CJ £30+.

I feel you have to draw a line somewhere. I will stick with the sunflower hearts at CJ but that's all.

I already have several of those sealable containers from CJ national trust fat balls and use for seed storage ect. I will buy some of the wilko ones ideally in the box. Thank you for your feed back monkeychesse. reviews look good on the site as well. It says they are produced in Demark for wilkco from what I can see.

You lost me there ItisaRobbo apart from the palm oil point. Identical from a looks point of view as well. I will buy and investigate the fat ball. On paper it looks good with a high fat content.  The macros are the same. I would guess the quality/freshness isn't as good. Always a reason why you pay cheap. finding the balance with cost and quality. CJ and arkwidlife ect as good as they are I think I might be over paying.

Thank you for getting back to me ItisaRobbo. A thought provoking reply. When all is said and done I will stick with CJ and arkwildlife. I intent on cutting down in the summer and autumn to just sunflower hearts and the odd fat ball to save some money on this. Then back to more in the winter and spring.

Do you mind me asking why don't you feed the birds anymore? Why just niger seeds?

In reply to Paul I:

Paul I said:

Do you mind me asking why don't you feed the birds anymore? Why just niger seeds?

No probs. Many will disagree with me, and some of what I write is obviously just my opinion, but with a small number of facts thrown in.

Re niger, on the whole it tends to be of more interest to goldfinches, siskins and redpolls. Other species do (or at least did) eat it here incl bullfinches, dunnocks, robin and house sparrow. Even a blackbird one year (all eating off a tray rather than through the actual feeder holes). I wanted to keep having the main three species coming up near the house.

Re not feeding birds otherwise, I am lucky enough to have nesting house martins each year, and swifts for a couple of years. They compete with, and lose, to house sparrows. The population of sparrows has continued to increase even after stopping feeding. Continuing to feed would make that even worse in all likelihood. Sticking to just niger was my way of feeding a few birds but without benefiting house sparrows.

Re feeding in general, I am sure you know, people feeding birds is 'supplementary feeding'. Birds survived prior to humans feeding birds. Many species don't make any use of bird feeding. People feed birds for several reasons, some are more valid than others. The most valid and understandable IMO is attracting birds closer so they can be seen more easily. Other reasons, e.g. conservation, are more of a grey area. E.g. Some species that benefit from feeding are also predators. Someone recently posted about wanting to encourage magpies but discourage pigeons. So, in that example, hard to make a case for feeding for conservation reasons, esp as magpies predate breeding smaller birds' nests.

The other main point IMO is most declining species don't benefit from feeding. I've already mentioned house martins and swifts. Others incl spotted flycatchers, lesser spotted woodpeckers, waders, warblers, whinchats etc etc. Many of those species compete with garden fed birds. e.g. nest sites chosen by robins would also be chosen by spotted flycatchers.....the latter lose every time if robins want those sites. Great spotted woodpeckers make use of garden feeders, but predate willow tit nests amongst other species. Magpies etc etc.

You can then throw in things like disease spread, where it's hard to argue against bird feeders speeding up that spread, and luring in new victims. Other stuff look food mileage importing feed, and using up land for bird food that could otherwise be used for other crops etc! I remember people talking about Ukraine and sunflower oil recently.....and yet we as humans are buying and using sunflower seeds to feed birds, most species of which aren't in decline and many individuals would survive the Winter anyway.

A lot of waffle but hopefully not riddled with typos or anything too controversial!

A very interesting post and thank you for putting the time into that reply. Well that makes sense with regard to the sparrow and house martin's situation. I wouldn't know if the sparrows would out complete them though. I also have many sparrows with plenty of tits, finches, black caps and more.

I sometimes have a sparrowhawk make a visit as well, which I understand is a good thing, or at least nothing to be concerned about. I'm curious with most species in decline not benefiting from feeding. From what you are suggesting the ones which need the feed lose out to the well fed birds.

In reply to Paul I:

Paul I said:

From what you are suggesting the ones which need the feed lose out to the well fed birds.

It is more a case of those that are generalist, or adaptable, or can benefit from direct human action that are increasing in numbers (on the whole). Those species that will never come to garden feeders....e.g. waders! need other help, most especially habitat creation and/or protection, human disturbance/hunting reduced and predator restriction/control at nest sites.

As prev., humans feeding birds in gardens 24x7x365 is supplementary feeding. It's not really a conservation thing or necessary to keep species from going extinct.  In a small number of cases, targeted feeding is of conservation value, e.g. feeding in areas of cirl buntings & turtle doves. 

Swifts, house martins, curlews, whinchats, spotted flycatchers, cuckoos etc etc don't need or want humans to feed them. A level playing field is one of the things that may help reduce their decline, alongside habitat protection, providing nesting sites etc. 

It is perfectly natural for predators to raid nests. It is not perfectly natural for booming great spotted woodpecker populations for example, to rampage through house martin colonies. That would have been unusual 50 years ago.

Species benefiting from humans feeding 24x7x365 in gardens are wood pigeons, great spotted woodpeckers, magpies, nuthatches, blue tits, feral pigeons, jackdaws, goldfinches, house sparrows, robins, blackbirds etc. Very hard to make a case for feeding them to conserve their populations. Almost all of that list have done very well in recent decades. Blackcaps you referred to, also doing very well, in part due to humans feeding over Wintering populations (as opposed to UK breeding blackcaps which aren't benefiting from human feeding in UK). 

There are exceptions. Starlings and chaffinches have declined but also benefit from feeding in gardens. The latter is declining in part due to disease.....anything to do with disease spread at feeders? Only science that no one is paying for will prove it one way or another. Greenfinches benefited from feeding in 1970's. Remember the red netting peanut feeders? They then paid for the bird feeding by being heavily wiped out by disease and only recently are showing limited signs of population recovery.

People over estimate the importance of humans feeding birds in terms of 'helping'. As I said, most species get no benefit at all, and if anything, become worse off as a result.

Re sparrows v martins, sparrows throwing nestlings or eggs out of martin nests are one way of spotting the issue. Sparrows also attack martins as they arrive or leave nest sites, and routinely wait above the nests for them to arrive. Once I see a sparrow enter an active martin nest, I know it's pretty much game over for that martin nest. Only once or twice have martin nests survived sparrow intrusion here that I've witnessed.    

My own intuitive thinking was feeding the birds was blown out of proportion at least by the companies selling the food, But that is understandable. Inventing a problem which doesn't exist or at least overestimating the issue then having a solution ready at hand isn't anything new.

We observed this on a global scale with the pharmaceutical cartel recently. However from what I understand independent organisations (if they are independent) such as the national trust, inform us to feed all year round as many birds need help over the year. You certainly raise some compelling points against this. Other factors such as location or something else I am unaware of as well may balance out each side to the debate.

It might appear to the birds like a divine hand offered in the garden with endless food but with potential problems with disease, a level playing field for other birds and so on. The sheer amount of additional calories many birds must get, certainly the gold/greenfinches appear to get, constantly eating the sunflower hearts.

Perhaps its finding the balance with the benefits and not to actually making things worse. I always clean my feeders and bird bath every 2 weeks and intend on scaling back in the summer and autumn to just sunflower heats only. Then adding more - fat balls/pellets/ kibbled nuts, in the winter/spring. Its an interesting subject with pros and cons.

In reply to Paul I:

Paul I said:

However from what I understand independent organisations (if they are independent) such as the national trust, inform us to feed all year round as many birds need help over the year.

Is that the same National Trust as this? Where do the organisations get their opinions from? I don't remember them funding any research into supplementary feeding or wild bird conservation.

I don't want to discourage people from feeding birds. I just want to ask questions about some of the motives. As mentioned early on, there is a very valid reason for feeding....to bring birds closer. Attracting more species into gardens would also be a valid argument. 24x7x365 helping conserve species???? I severely doubt it and no one pays for research to prove it as it's in no one's financial interest to do so.

Research has been done on blue tits and willow tits. Winter feeding does indeed keep more blue tits alive to attempt breeding the following year. No evidence was found to show it increased their numbers year on year though as more breeding blue tits = more competition in suitable habitats. Research has also shown more breeding blue tits in willow tit territory = less willow tits. As you will see, research that isn't directly related to bird feeding, is by accident throwing up 'circumstantial evidence'. Those 'excess' blue tits each Spring could be weak, elderly ones that wouldn't have survived the Winter otherwise, but which do and are more than capable of taking over a willow tit nest.

As previous, farmland needs to be used to grow all these bird food crops. Does National Trust do research for that? Or does it suggest giving that bird food land over when people are starving due to crop failures or wars in agricultural countries?

Putting it bluntly in terms of 24x7x365 untargeted bird feeding and it being of conservation value. Biggest declines in UK (in no particular order) are swifts, grey partridge, turtle dove, cuckoo, shelduck, lapwing, barn owl, little owl, kestrel, willow tit, marsh tit, swallow, house martin, grasshopper warbler, curlew and other waders etc etc. Who is feeding any of these? I appreciate a small number of willow and marsh tits visit gardens, but let's be realistic. 24x7x365 does nothing for the most declining species I've listed there. The only exceptions I already mentioned prev. and are starling and chaffinch, as well as greenfinch. The latter two may well be paying the price of that feeding due to disease spread being far more likely in heavily used places.

Many birds disperse to breed anyway, so 24x7x365 ends up in many gardens just being pigeons, magpies, and the resident pair of robin and blackbird. Again, feeding those quite often ends up being cancelled out by the pet cat benefiting on birds being lured in, or magpies who're already 'onsite' and able to then see what is about. As you said, sparrowhawks too benefit from extra groups of birds, so I'm not even convinced the fed individual birds are benefiting in any way.