Dotting is and crossing ts

Another thought, based on the invaluable information that Rothiemurchus gave us last year, if you consider the locations in the UK that he spent extended visits.  Almost all, if not in fact possibly all the areas, are known osprey habitats. Was he just wandering around, or did he have a plan? OK with the exception of Orkney, but he only passed a few hours there and did not roost, as I recall. You just have to run through the listings on RD's website and a distinct pattern emerges. Some are obvious and others less well known, but I am sure that the few people who know 100% of habitats, would be struck by his selection of visits. I bet that was why RD was so interested in what he had learned, from this novice migrator.

After all, Orkney is part way to Scandinavia, which he may have had an inkling about, but he maybe thought he had explored enough and was maybe getting hungry. :O)

Lots of interesting thoughts, ideas and observations about these birds in response to my post of 3 March about unusual 'non aggressive' behaviour of a pair of ospreys at a nest to an intruding bird, as opposed to the 'norm' which is 1 of the resident pair taking flight and seeing off the intruder.

What follows are purely my personal thoughts -

JSB - You raise a really interesting point about communication. I'm not sure I would go along with the idea of 1 osprey 'telling' another about good fishing grounds, and friendships developing between ospreys though. Looking at the communication angle first I think there has been some work done, particularly with birds that tend to flock at certain times of the year, that if you are roosting next to a bird who looks particularly well fed, then the chances are you will follow that bird the following morning to his foraging grounds on the basis that they may well be better than where you have been forgaing. Not sure they 'tell 1 another' but pick up on visual cues given to them by other birds - but its still communication.

If I was an osprey I certainly wouldnt want to discuss with another male where my nest was or how good it was - that might entice a visit while I wasnt there and my fertile female was. BUT I do strongly agree about the communication you describe - vocalisations and posture - and I think it may go even further.

Keith: I'm glad its not only me that had wondered if birds can recognise their offspring - even after 2 or 3 years and a totally different plumage. You make a very strong point about male offspring being more likely to return to their nests than females and say 'At LG in recent years how many of EJ offspring have returned to visit the nest - None that we are aware of.' Another very good point, however we have to remember that there were a number of years in the last decade where there were no chicks and in 2004 it was thought that the 2 oldrest chicks were female and only the youngest was a male. In another year, correct me if I am wrong, the young were not ringed. On a much more positive note, my understanding is that Red 8T was actually a chick from the closest nest to LG - which means that he certainly returned to his natal area. I totally agree with your view about 'fishing for a buddy.'

Patily: you make a point about stance that does make a lot of sense to me, except why would the intruding bird NOT be an aggressor - or at the very least on a fact finding mission - fishing for a buddy - checking out the nest or nest site?

Chloe: You said your first thoughts were that the intruders may be related to the birds at the nest - offspring. I then said 'if a parent last saw its offspring certainly 2, probably 3 or even more years ago, and then it was in juvenile plumage, and a sibling probably last saw his brother or sister that length of time ago, again in juvenile plumage, is it really possible that they could be recognised as relations a. after such length of time has passed and b. when their plumage has changed so drastically?' Well, I will answer my own question - yes, amazingly enough, coupled with other 'cues' I think it is possible and my belief is that what I witnessed was 2 adults being paid a visit by one of their offspring and recognised (probably him) as such.    

I said other cues...... firstly perhaps voice? Although the chick leaves in juvenile plumage and returns in adult plumage does his 'voice' change? Are there other cues? I remember watching or listening to a tv or radio program a fair few years ago and they were interviewing a famous actor - I can't remember who it was - but he had played both fictional characters and also 'real life' roles and they asked him how he started getting a feel for his character. Did he have to get the voice right, or get inside his head as to what he was thinking? He said no. The most important thing and if I dont get it right I dont give a good performance is 'the walk.' He reckoned that we all walk in our own distinctive manner and if he was playing a real person he would study film of them until he could imitate the way they walked. I thought about it and suddenly realised that I had sometimes been walking behind someone that I knew and I knew it was them, even tho' I couldnt see their face, yes partly because of the clothes they were wearing - but mainly because I 'knew their walk.

So - if ospreys could talk - and I was standing next to one who could see its mate heading to the nest from 5 miles away and I asked it - how do you know its your mate from that distance? - do you think I might get a reply along the lines of 'you idiot - any osprey could tell its my mate - just look at the way he is flying - can't you see the way he tucks his left leg right under his body, but trails his right leg - and just look at when he banks - he always flips that 3rd primary feather over the 2nd just a little too late then has to make a minor adjustment with his tail.'  

The adult male sees his chicks flying for many weeks - is it possible they have individualistic ways of flying?

So, I have said my piece - I think what I witnessed was 2 adult birds recognising the 'intruder' as 1 of their own. Recognising them, like humans do, using all the evidence, both visual and aural that we store.

I am ready to be shot down in flames and it wouldn't be the first time, not I am sure, will it be the last.

CRinger, you have given me food for thought and thank you. A brilliant thread and I and all have learnt a lot and I am learning and no expert but this thread is brilliant

I am fascinated by intruders and maybe one will be identified. however a brilliant formatve thread. I have learnt so much from all of the contributions on here and I will say thank you to all of you :)

I am feared to post as so much to learn but I do honestly think Ospreys do recognise their young. Lady at the Lotl has been seen to be tolerant of intruders.

I must go as I not an expert and out of my depth.

I am reading with interest :)

Please, please, please - never be frightened to post!!! We are all experts in life - and that is surely what matters? EVERYONE bring your life experiences to the forum - that's how we all learn. My 'idea' about flying and walking might be scoffed at by experts - I mention it from a life experience point of view - not from my knowledge of these amazing birds. Read - but please contribute.

I agree B&B I have watched Lady for the last two or three years and two years ago when Green 7Y first appeared I watched as they seemed to allow another female to sit on the nest at times as well - given it was early days between Lady and 7Y it was strange that over a period of a week this other female kept turning up.

Remember it was EJ who 'told' us last year, at the time of Odin's return from migration....we who were watching the webcam then knew that Odin was very close, the comments are there on last year's forum to prove it.....so we knew via EJ that he was back, long before we actually saw him on the nest. So if any ospreys had been watching, they would have known as well. It was a good example of communication, albeit to us mere mortals!  :-)

I don't think anyone here would shoot your opinion down in flames CRinger and certainly not me. Entirely plausible and I couldn't agree more.

(Tongue in cheek!) I know parrots can talk! But do parakeets 'speak' to each other. True story.....at the end of 2010 I had a solitary ring necked parakeet, at the sunflower seeds.....months went by with his visits, 3 or 4 times a month....then some time in 2011 there were two at a time.......then in the last few months of 2011 it was up to three, not all males and sometimes, others waiting up in the large sycamore trees by the road at the foot of the garden. So how did these later arrivals find out about my feeders? Was the original bird keeping quiet at first, about his new food supply. Now they come in one, a pair or, occasionally three.

Yesterday in the front garden, I found the silver birch tree branch dripping onto the drive, steadily and today it is still dripping. Then I remembered that at breakfast time I had had a Great Spotted Woodpecker, at an RSPB fat block which hangs on the tree. Was the GSW attacking the tree for insects (most likely) or was it the moisture that he sought? I shall be keeping an eye out for developments, to see if the numbers increase, but I think GSW's are usually observed as solitary.

ChloeB said:

Is EJ really a dunnock?

Had to have a belly laugh, Chloe.

Am enjoying this thread - only just found it and no time to finish it at present as I must now go to work.